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Carl Nichols

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #125 on: September 11, 2015, 09:38:18 AM »
Is the new course at Forest Dunes still scheduled to open in 2016; if so, would that be spring 2016 or sometime later in the year? Any thoughts on how the conditioning would be when it first opens?  (I'm in the process of planning a group trip and am considering whether FD would make sense for us.) 

Howard Riefs

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #126 on: September 11, 2015, 09:50:11 AM »
Is the new course at Forest Dunes still scheduled to open in 2016; if so, would that be spring 2016 or sometime later in the year? Any thoughts on how the conditioning would be when it first opens?  (I'm in the process of planning a group trip and am considering whether FD would make sense for us.)


As of a few weeks ago: soft open planned for August 15, 2016.

https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/623948591057477632
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tom_Doak

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #127 on: September 11, 2015, 02:52:04 PM »
Is the new course at Forest Dunes still scheduled to open in 2016; if so, would that be spring 2016 or sometime later in the year? Any thoughts on how the conditioning would be when it first opens?  (I'm in the process of planning a group trip and am considering whether FD would make sense for us.)


Carl:


The last fairway was seeded ten days ago, so it's a bit early to start counting on an opening date.


What we've discussed is letting people play the ten holes closest to the clubhouse [1-5 and 14-18] starting sometime next summer ... a few groups in the morning going clockwise, and a few groups in the afternoon going counter-clockwise.  Those are the holes that were planted first, so they should be getting playable by sometime in July.  Also, playing the course both directions in the same day will necessarily limit the number of "preview" rounds.  I have no idea when they will start taking reservations; I would hope it's not until we see how the grass comes through the winter.


The only problem with that plan is that a lot of my favorite holes are in the last few that were seeded!

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #128 on: September 11, 2015, 04:27:44 PM »
Hopefully it is open next fall, I would definitely head up from Cincinnati for a weekend stay to play both courses. Keep us posted Tom!
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Jim Franklin

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #129 on: September 14, 2015, 09:32:57 AM »
Tom -

Ron Whitten has always said the course he rates #1 for Design Variety is Desert Mountain Renegade because of the two green concept. I would hope GD rates the Loop as one course. Personally, I can't wait to play it. But it should be rated as one course with loads of variety.
Mr Hurricane

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #130 on: September 14, 2015, 11:21:43 AM »
Tom -

Ron Whitten has always said the course he rates #1 for Design Variety is Desert Mountain Renegade because of the two green concept. I would hope GD rates the Loop as one course. Personally, I can't wait to play it. But it should be rated as one course with loads of variety.

Good point Jim. It's not just GD, all three magazines will need to determine how to rate both courses.

Niall Hay

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Matt Frey, PGA

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #132 on: November 04, 2015, 04:18:54 PM »
Here's a press release about the Loop project:

Tom Doak/Renaissance Golf Design's Innovative 18-hole Reversible Course Taking Shape At Forest Dunes

Traverse City, MI - Tom Doak has been thinking about building a fully reversible 18-hole design for more than twenty years. Once Forest Dunes Golf Club owner Lew Thompson committed to the concept last year, he had to start thinking about not just how to make it work, but how to make the two options equally interesting for golfers.

After all, he borrowed the concept from The Old Course at St. Andrews, and there's not much demand to play The Old Course backwards these days. Holes like the famous Road hole [the 17th] and the par-3 11th are so iconic that no one wants to miss them.

So did that mean he had to dumb down his design? "No," Doak smiles, "we just had to make sure that the best of the holes are distributed relatively equally between the two loops, so that one version of the course doesn't trump the other."

Now that the full 18 holes in Roscommon, named The Loop, are completed with the grass growing in, Doak said he's confident that the course works well both ways.

"I'm really pleased with it," he said. "I've taken a few people out in the last month or two to walk through it in both directions, or play a few holes. Whichever way you're playing, it never feels like you are going the wrong way."

In the end, the success of the design rests with the greens. "It's almost like they have to be approachable from 360 degrees around them, which limits how crazy you can make any contours," says Doak's lead associate for the project, Brian Slawnik. "But when you build a really interesting green, both of the holes playing into it become outstanding."

Two of the best holes, according to Doak, are the sixth and seventh playing in the counterclockwise direction. "The sixth is a very short par-3 with a wide and shallow green, and the seventh is a short par-4 with a long and narrow green that has a dip in the middle of it. But those are also two of the best holes playing clockwise. That seventh green lays out across the line of play from right to left, with the dip separating the two hole locations, and a big pine at the back right corner of the green really guards the right half. Then you play a short par-4 down to the sixth green, approaching on the long axis. So you get one wide green and one skinny one whichever way you're playing, but in either case, the short par-4 is one of the better holes out there."

Doak said the reversible format also gave him the opportunity to experiment with designs of famous or favorite holes he incorporated in some of his courses.

"I will occasionally build a hole to pay homage to something I've seen somewhere else," he said. "For instance over the 35 courses I've built, I think I've built a version of the Redan hole from North Berwick Golf Links four or five times. This course has a green somewhat like that too, the 4th hole in the counterclockwise routing."

"Clockwise, that green comes at the end of the longest par-4 on the course. Most of it slopes toward you on the second shot, but it also tilts pretty strongly from left to right. If you bail out to the left on your approach, it will be a very tricky little shot to keep it on the green from over there because of the tilt."

"There are probably two or three greens when you are playing them in one direction you will think, 'Oh yeah, I've seen some version of this green somewhere before,' but part of the reason I used those greens is because I realized they would be interesting if you played them from a different direction," he said.

Doak's view is shared by the one observer who counts the most in this instance, owner Lew Thompson of Huntsville, Ark., Thompson said he is impressed with how well the course turned out after playing holes on both routes.

"I was excited to see how good it is, playing both ways, and how different it is playing both ways," he said. "Everybody I've taken up there to play it had a perception in their minds so different than when they see it. They couldn't believe that the a green they played one way was the same green they played again coming in from the side because it has such a very different look."

He said higher handicap golfers will especially appreciate the wide fairways that will keep stray shots in play. Thompson said he expects some holes to be ready for play early in the summer with both directions open by August to limited preview play. The Loop will alternate the course routing on a daily basis allowing golfers to play each direction on back-to-back days.

"We got the best of Tom, and I don't say that to offend people who have used Tom in the past, but we got Tom at a time when he didn't have so many projects going, and with this one (near his home) he was able to devote much more of his time to this project and it is really showing," Thompson said.

Doak said designing greens at Forest Dunes was easier than locating tees since he had been mulling the reversible concept for so long he has a playbook in his head of ideas that would work and ones that would not.

"There are certain kinds of greens that we would not build at Forest Dunes because it would be harder to make them work from two directions at the same time," he said. "When you are shaping and thinking about two directions it does make it trickier but we already had ruled out the things that would get us in trouble."

On half of the holes players will approach the greens from straight in one way and then from 90 degrees or 120 degrees rather than straight in from the back of those greens.

Constructing tees took more thought, he said, because his routing has multiple changes in direction.

"You will be playing one hole, say west, and you will turn and play south for the next hole," he said. To make that seamless, some tees, are in fairways or just on the edge of fairways. It's still efficient, because the tees only need to be half as big for each direction -- the sizes are based on the amount of traffic they have to handle."

Doak said a big factor in how the course turned out was the contributions of his three top associates at Renaissance Golf Design, Brian Slawnik, Brian Schneider, and Eric Iverson, who normally are scattered around the globe working on multiple Doak projects.

"Brian Slawnik ran the job and was there most of the time and Brian Schneider and Eric Iverson took turns coming in to shape," Doak said. "There were only about three days when all four of us were on site but generally two of them were there whenever I was there. When we only have two projects going at a time that's how it works."

Doak said having that many eyes on this particular project was a big boost.

"It would have been harder to tackle this idea if I were doing it just by myself," he said. "Having different guys looking at it instead of just one of them you get some fresh ideas, and you don't make any mistakes. It took some of the pressure off me. I could think more about being creative than making sure we don't make a mistake."

For more information about Renaissance Golf Design, visit renaissancegolf.com.

For more information about Forest Dunes, visit forestdunesgolf.com.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #133 on: November 05, 2015, 09:17:42 PM »
That release, among other sources, came from : http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/323239
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #134 on: November 06, 2015, 07:26:55 AM »
That release, among other sources, came from : http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/323239


Actually, Ronald, it came from Dave Richards, who has been doing press releases for me [when we do them] for most of the last 20-odd years.  It went to several hundred writers and golf news outlets, of which the golf wire is but one.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2015, 08:08:57 AM »
That release, among other sources, came from : http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/323239


Actually, Ronald, it came from Dave Richards, who has been doing press releases for me [when we do them] for most of the last 20-odd years.  It went to several hundred writers and golf news outlets, of which the golf wire is but one.


Tom, when I think about reversible greens I remember the hole on the reverse Old Course that played from the 13th tee to the 11th (Eden) green over Hill Bunker.   Is there anything at Forest Dunes that crazy?  In a good way of course!   Into a brisk wind, up and over that frightening bunker to a falling away green, I thought it was the toughest hole on the reverse routing. 

Howard Riefs

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #136 on: December 11, 2015, 01:40:23 PM »
From Morning Drive's "Architect Week," a good story about Doak, Forest Dunes and the new reversible course:


http://www.golfchannel.com/media/reversible-course-forest-dunes/

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #137 on: May 26, 2016, 05:37:26 PM »
I was up at Forest Dunes enjoying the original course.  One evening Laura and I wandered across the way and took some photos.


Note that the course is not done yet, and I honestly don't have a reference for where on the layout these photos were taken. 


That said, it's a fascinating property with really great ground movement, and it's very, very wide.


Here goes:
Laura in front of a giant bunker.   It's very interesting because you can't see it from the other direction:



Picture 2:


Picture 3:



Picture 4:



Picture 5:



Picture 6:


Picture 7 (looking back to the clubhouse):


Picture 8:
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 05:44:49 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #138 on: May 26, 2016, 06:01:48 PM »
Thanks very much for the photos, Dan.
Ah, but them Renaissance boys are a clever lot, aren't they?
The photos remind me a bit of their work at another 'inland links' ie the Renaissance Club, except here there is more undulation but an even lower 'profile' (as befitting the reversibility), and the sand is good old fashioned Michigan sand -- none of that fancy imported stuff!
Thanks again
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 08:21:37 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #139 on: May 27, 2016, 07:40:49 PM »
They are actually just screening some of the sand on site for bunker sand.  It's a slow process, but a lot less expensive than trucking it in from 50 miles away [or 1000 miles!].


Dan:


Labels for your pictures:


1:  approach to 1st green, Red [counter-clockwise] course.  This is the biggest bunker on the course, short and right of the green.
2:  18th green looking back down the fairway [or, looking down the first fairway of the Blue]
3:  1st hole (Red) from top of hill, 200+ yards out on a 360-yard hole
4:  18th green looking back
5:  bunker edge on 18th hole, Blue course [which is also the first on the Red)
6:  bunkers in face of hill to right on 18th Blue [these would be just below where picture 3 is taken]
7:  tee shot to #18 Blue course [back up the fairway of Red #1 ... the tee for Blue #18 is right on top of the big bunker in the first photo]
8:  2nd fairway Red course [I think]


So, these pictures are essentially all of the same one or two holes, looking in different directions.  As you can see the turf still has a ways to go, but it's warm and rainy up here today, so the grass is finally growing.


I have been working on the yardage book for the course.  If you want to see a sample, and want to help, I can send a .pdf of one of the holes so you can see how it works in different directions.  Seeing just one or two holes will go a long way toward explaining the course!

Bill_McBride

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #140 on: May 27, 2016, 08:12:32 PM »
They are actually just screening some of the sand on site for bunker sand.  It's a slow process, but a lot less expensive than trucking it in from 50 miles away [or 1000 miles!].


Dan:


Labels for your pictures:


1:  approach to 1st green, Red [counter-clockwise] course.  This is the biggest bunker on the course, short and right of the green.
2:  18th green looking back down the fairway [or, looking down the first fairway of the Blue]
3:  1st hole (Red) from top of hill, 200+ yards out on a 360-yard hole
4:  18th green looking back
5:  bunker edge on 18th hole, Blue course [which is also the first on the Red)
6:  bunkers in face of hill to right on 18th Blue [these would be just below where picture 3 is taken]
7:  tee shot to #18 Blue course [back up the fairway of Red #1 ... the tee for Blue #18 is right on top of the big bunker in the first photo]
8:  2nd fairway Red course [I think]


So, these pictures are essentially all of the same one or two holes, looking in different directions.  As you can see the turf still has a ways to go, but it's warm and rainy up here today, so the grass is finally growing.


I have been working on the yardage book for the course.  If you want to see a sample, and want to help, I can send a .pdf of one of the holes so you can see how it works in different directions.  Seeing just one or two holes will go a long way toward explaining the course!


Tom, having played the Reverse Old Course during our 2007 adventure, I would love to see your PDF of holes on The Loop.   A look at Jeremy Glenn's "In My Opinion" piece on the Reverse Old Course is also very interesting. 


During my visit to the 2005 Open at St Andrews I was sitting in the stands by the 14th green looking down the fairway, hoping someone would come to grief in Hell, and noticed a bunker that could only be seen looking at the fairway of the hole played in reverse in that fairway, from 15 tee to 13 green, and said to myself, "Aha!  That's the reverse hole!"


My email is billmcb320@yahoo.com.  Thanks.

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