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Brad Tufts

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Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« on: September 17, 2003, 12:04:00 AM »
All,

     I am planning a trip to the Phoenix/Scottsdale area around new years, and am looking for recommendations.

I'm staying at that new huge Marriott Desert Ridge complex, and I'd assume we'd try the new Palmer and Faldo courses there to begin things.  I am definately going to get to Talking Stick as well (C&C did the North only?).  This leaves about three rounds to be planned.

I don't think I will get out to Apache Stronghold (as much as I'd like to see it).  As for all the three other rounds, I'd be looking for a combo of the expensive and the good values.  I guess Troon North and Grayhawk would be the expensive, but I cannot figure out the difference between many of the other ones after looking at many websites and reviews.  Oh yeah, and I don't want to see much that looks like Florida, I'm trying to play some desert ones.

Can anyone give me some pointers?

Thanks,

Brad
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Gyrogolf

Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2003, 12:35:47 AM »
The North Course at Talking Stick is absolutely mandatory. You are staying at a sprawling resort and I do not think I would bother with the Palmer Course.

However, the Faldo course is wonderful. I've been told it bears striking resemblance to another Scmidt & Curley effort in Palm Desert, and if you have played it, I would be interested to know how similar they are.

I was fortunate the play the Faldo course before they began their practice of overseeding the bermuda fairways. It was terrific by any measuring stick as the golf course is a faux links and dormant bermuda is the closest thing we have in this counrty to Scottish fescue.

Unfortunately, they had made the decision to overseed this next year, so it might not be presented to play at its optimum. The bunker work is a bit Crenshaw/Coore-esque and there are all sorts of strategic options and run-up areas in front of the greens.

The only feature that looked a bit strange was the crushed granite mounding that lined many of the fairways. They opted to plant these dorky little bushes and the combination of glaring white and cutsey plant treatments frankly looks silly.

If you are a rater - or can weasel something - I strongly recommend Mirabel CC. It is a private Fazio course and I believe it is better than Shadow Creek. No, that is not a typo and I have not been drinking tequila.

It is not an engineering marvel, but the collection of holes both together and individually are far more interesting and satisfying to play than Shadow Creek. It is certainly far more strategic and there is no comparison in terms of putting surface contouring.

I likened it to a "Lahonton" in the desert. A private, intimate enclave that goes to great lengths not to communicate the slightest hint of nuevo riche excess.

Everything from the pro shop to the golf course seems in perfect concert with the surrounds. I know it is not like me to wax poetic about an overall "experience" at a golf course, but this is an exception that must be seem to be believed.

 :o
« Last Edit: September 17, 2003, 12:37:41 AM by Gyrogolf »

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2003, 02:11:06 AM »
 I've played both Talkin' Stick Norte and Apache Stronghold and would NOT miss either if I made another trip to the area.  One that I have heard wonderful things about and would like to see is Desert Forest in Carefree, Arizona.  

Here's a brief report...

www.golfarizona.com/departments/coursereviews/phoenix/desert-forest-golf-club.htm
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2003, 08:48:55 AM »
btufts,

Coore & Crenshaw designed both Talking Stick North and Talking Stick South. I'd only played TSN (several times) before last spring, when I played both. I'd recommend playing both, not only to see what an interesting--actually striking-- contrast in design styles C&C came up with for two adjacent courses on identical flat desert topography, but also because TSS stands on its own as a really solid parkland golf course IMO.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2003, 09:38:26 AM »
I've only been once, but a best buddy goes EVERY June.  His favorites, in order, are:
     1. We Ko Pa
     2. Troon Pinnacle
     3. Greyhawk Raptor
     4. The Boulders South Course

I loved Troon Pinnacle as well.  The one place I played that I think I would NOT return to is Legend Trail.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

hpembroke

Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2003, 12:49:50 PM »
What a wonderful example of how much room there is in Golf Course Architecture for so many opinions from enthusiasts and varieties in style from the architects themselves.
 
Golf Course Architecture is shallow enough for a baby to swim in and deep enough for an elephant to drown in, that's for sure!!!!

My thoughts were spawned by the list of favorites of Mr Crocketts friend.  I too am somewhat familiar with AZ golf but must admit his list differs greatly from mine.  There was something familiar about his list though, then it dawned on me.  If I was to turn my Top 20 AZ courses (upscale higher profile courses that is) upside down, then our top 4's would look very similar!!!!

I too give my vote for the Talking Stick courses, also to Mr Doaks wonderfully routed and never dull Apache Stronghold.  Also Desert Forest is a Red Lawrence gem but very private and a toughie to get onto.  Of the latest desert disasters, I mean creations, I have enjoyed Mirabel the most, again private.  I would think some of Mr Fazio's best work of late with some wonderful greens complexes.  Forest Higlands is also a very solid course, The Canyons course that is, not the newer Weiskopf course.  Sadly, again private.

The appeal and hype of We-Ko-Pa has yet to strike me.  Obviously a spectacular setting and wonderful to work with, but the two times I played I walked away uninspired by the golf presented before me.  Very contrived.  If you look beyond the setting, and closer to the course in front of you, there isn’t anything of any architectural significance to comment upon.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2003, 12:56:29 PM »
My two pennies:  Talking Stick North is a must.  It's a roomy playing field with plenty of options around the greens.  Talking Stick South is interesting for its contrast alone.  I enjoyed it immensely but thought the built-up green complexes with false fronts were redundant, though sporty.

Regards,

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

SteveTL

Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2003, 01:50:20 PM »
I wouldn't consider Flagstaff in the Scottsdale/Phoenix area (re: Forest Highlands).


hpembroke

Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2003, 02:06:52 PM »
And you consider Apache Stronhold in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area too?

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2003, 02:42:27 PM »
I had omitted various places because of driving distance from Phoenix-Scottsdale.  Sedona would be one example, Flagstaff another.  The choices would change depending on what the radius of the circle was.

Hpembroke
I haven't played We Ko Pa, so can't comment.  I didn't find anything special about Troon Monument, but I thought that Troon Pinnacle was a great desert course IF desert golf is the experience that you are looking for.  Greyhawk's courses aren't necessarily world-class, though they are both very, very good. (unlike my buddy, I liked Talon better than Raptor, and by a lot!)  However, the amenities at Greyhawk, combined with the quality and conditioning of the courses, make them hard to pass up if you are sampling the immediate area around Phoenix and not planning to drive hours in both directions to play elsewhere.  Based on what you wrote, we probably agree on Legend Trail; one of the really disappointing experiences I ever had in a golf course.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ben_Hogan_NJ

Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2003, 02:51:14 PM »
Hanen't played Talking Stick but have heard great things about it.  I've been out there many times and here is mine:

1. Troon Monument
2. Greyhawk Raptor
3. Troon Pinnacle
4. Boulders South
5. Greyhawk Talon

SteveTL

Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2003, 06:28:21 PM »
And no, I wouldn't consider Apache Stronghold part of the Phoenix/Scottsdale area either...

but... it might be better worth the trip...

JMD

Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2003, 08:37:43 PM »
I like Legend Trail -- particularly as a first round after winter has set in.  The holes are interesting, fair, and the conditioning is first-rate.  It also has a lower-key tone than the other places out there that I think are worth the time and money involved.  In my view, the best are:  Troon North Pinnacle, Grayhawk Raptor (which is as interesting to look at and much more of a challenge than Talon), and Talking Stick North (if you were to play one twice, this is the one).  I'd put Legend Trail slightly below these, but I play it every time and always enjoy sitting on the deck near the 18th green as the sun sets.  It is a special place.  Finally, Estancia is my favorite of the few private clubs I have played out there.  It is set entirely in the side of the peak that gives Troon North Pinnacle its name and its wonder.

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2003, 11:28:32 PM »

Golf Course Architecture is shallow enough for a baby to swim in and deep enough for an elephant to drown in, that's for sure!!!!

hpembroke,

Good line above. I'm with you--I failed to see the magic in We-Ko-Pa; I preferred Dove Valley Ranch (RTJ Jr), and easily would make the drive to Apache Stronghold before returning to We-Ko-Pa.

PS Welcome to GCA!
Twitter: @Deneuchre

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2003, 04:39:52 AM »
If you care to drive up to Payson, The Rim and Chaparral Pines are 2 wonderful courses
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

SteveTL

Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2003, 09:04:51 AM »
Another vote for Payson - The Rim in particular.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2003, 09:33:31 AM »

Having been to Phoenix/Scottsdale every year for the last 9 years to play golf, I have played most of the well known public courses and some of the not so well known, here's my take:

The musts:

         Talking Stick North and South: The South gets a bad rap but its still a fine course.

          Apache Stronghold: make the drive!

The worthy:

          Wildfire Faldo: A fine Curley and Schmidt course.

           Las Sendas: One of those course that people either love or hate.

 Nice alternatives:

           Longbow - a fun course at a reasonable price
 
           Wildhorse: A couple of Gary Panks courses

Overrated and/or overpriced:

          Troon North: I prefered Monument over Pinnacle, but there are too many houses now.

           Grayhawk:  Talon over Raptor

            Legend Trail: played it twice and I don't know why.

            We-ko-pa: Play Talking Stick North or Apache Stronghold first and then play this and you will realize what a missed opportunity this was.

             None of the courses run by American Golf are worth a darn, overwatered and in poor shape.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Phoenix/Scottsdale Recommendations
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2003, 12:42:40 PM »
After playing there in January, I'm definitely with Craig - TSN and Apache Stronghold are the musts.  And the low cost of AS averaged with higher cost of TSN will keep your budget in line.  The 90 minutes drive out to AS, by the way, is beautiful desert highway.  Look for the abandoned bridge down below the existing bridge along the way.  By way of contrast, we played one of the JN courses in town and were disappointed.  You can also walk both TSN and AS, although they will look at you kinda funny in both pro shops ("You're going to do WHAT?).

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