Sea Island, Ocean Forest

[Paul Richards]

Anybody out there played these two courses?

Thoughts??

[Jim_Michaels]

Here goes my first foray into one of these GCA discussions of Rees Jones.

Ocean Forest is very exclusive, very well maintained and very beautiful. It is NOT very good. Rees Jones is the KING of unfulfilled potential. Why does this man get these choice jobs?

OF is not terrible. It is actually a very enjoyable place to play golf, but one can only wonder what the MFAs of GCA (most favored architects) might have done with this site. In his somewhat odd article in the most recent Golf Digest ranking issue, Ron Whitten pointed out that this is a course (left brain course on right brain land or vice-versa, I forget) that is just no sympatico with its terrain. This was clearly a top 25 in the US site and we get a top 250 in the US course out of it.

[Brad Klein]

Paul, you're actually referring to three courses - there are two 18-holes courses at Sea island GC, which is really on St. Simon Island, plus Ocean Forest GC, which is actually on Sea Island. (get it?)

Gary Galyean has two wonderful books about these places. You shoud see his accounts of them, they are definitive and interesting.

Ocean Forest, by Rees Jones, is a private club on land that's at the far eastern tip of the island that also houses The Cloisters. They are run as separate poroperties, so please note, Ocean Frest s not a resort-accessible course

As for Sea island GC, it sits across the waterway on St. Simon Island GC and is part of The Cloisters resort. There are four nines there, including original nines by Walter Travis, Colt & Alison, Dick Wilson and Joe Lee (as I recall). Please note I'm working here w/o my files so this is from memory and close, if not totally accurate.

In 1999, Tom Fazio redid the Colt & Alison and Lee nines to create what's now called the Seaside Course - great setting, lots of marshes, and some typical Fazio big-flourished bunkers and greens. It looks great.

Right around the same time, Rees Jones combined the other two adjoining nines in the Plantation Course, replete with his round, flattish bunkers and peripheral mounding to some extent. It lacks the setting and the marshes that Seaside has.

We had a big rater outing there in March 2000 upon the opening of the new 45-room lodge there at Sea Island GC on St. Simon Island. The consensus was the lodge was spectacular and that while the golf was very nice, the lodge was even better.

[larry_munger]

Haven't we heard reports like this over and over again, a pretty solid golf course built on a site that could have housed a "great" one. Maybe time on site does matter.

[BCrosby]

I agree with the gist of the comments above.

All courses are in spectacular settings, fun to play, but don't go there for the golf. The courses (all three of them) are a lesson is wasted opportunities.

The best part of St. Simons/Sea Island is the beach, the food and the hotels. Pricey, but worth the trip. A great place for kids. Bingo nights at the Cloister are an institution that should not be missed.

Bob

[John_Cullum]

I cannot agree with the assessment of Seaside as mediocre. I have played this course many times and never tire of it. It has always been meticulously maintained, and I especially enjoy the green complexes because of the allowance of the variety of shots that can be played from off of the green. Such variety is rarely seen with bermuda grasses. The sand dunes are beautifully done. The first time we had a tournament at seaside I asked if the sand dunes and vegitation were to be marked as environmentally sensitive areas, and was shocked when I was told no because they were all manmade.Mr. Fazio gets high marks from me for this effort, and I am not a great fan of his.

Plantation has a little more of the Fazio look. Manicured fairways abutted by pine straw bedding. There are several good holes though (especially the short par 4 second with its elevated green), and I can think of far less enjoyable places to play, such as Ocean Forest!

Not only is OF a great disapointment, it is one of the most pretentious places on the planet. The mens locker room has ostrich leather chairs and african plains trophies mounted on 20 foot high ceilings; it stifles the enjoyment from the very start. And you may only purchase selected items from the pro shop.Guests may only buy logo items with the words"Ocean Forest" emblazoned on them. Items that have the OF logo sans name are for members only, or as I was told by the shop attendant "you can't afford that." Lastly, the professional staff are treated like servants by the membership. No staff can play the course if a member is present. If a member shows up to play, all staff must immediately vacate the course.

OF is also about to undergo a rebuilding  of their greens. It seems that some silt found its way into the irrigation system and has destroyed the root system. I am not certain when this is scheduled.

There is another course affiliated with The Cloister, the Retreat, which is a make over of the old St. Simons Island Club. It is a DL3 redo I believe, not very exciting.

The Lodge is as nice as it gets. Go there and stay at the Lodge, play Seaside three times and walk around Plantation in the afternoon.

[BCrosby]

The way to do Sea Island is to stay at the Cloister and see if Tom Paul can get you on at Fernandina Municipal.  

[Paul Richards]

Thank you all for your input.  
Anyone else have any comments?

[paul cowley]

...sarge , just curious ,have you played the retreat course ?
....it does more member rounds than the others ,and it was designed with that in mind ....a course where a member might use the same ball all week.....not designed as a 'resort' course ,ala the others......its gets more teeth as you go back ,and ,from the tips, definately keeps up with the others [IMHO].......

[John_Cullum]

Paul C
I have played Retreat once and worked rules at a 36 hole tournament there. It is not bad, It's just that I am very impressed by Seaside and think Plantation is good, so Retreat is sort of a mild letdown when I'm at St. Simons.

[ChipOat]

Jim Michaels:

While Rees isn't my favorite architect either, I have to admit that your post is an example of what gets some of the Rees-related threads into high gear around here.

WHY isn't OF very good in your opinion?  While all opinions are, by definition, subjective, we could use a couple of examples to support your thesis.  Just one or two holes will be fine.

Tell us what YOU would change about 1 or 2 holes to improve the course?

[paul cowley]

sarge...thanks for the response...as i was involved with the design ,its always good to get feedback.......

[John_Cullum]

Paul C
The Georgia Section PGA will conduct its section championship at Retreat next year. It has been played on Seaaide the last few years. Sea Island Co. says they will "prep the course", which I suppose means tighter fairways and faster greens. try playing Retreat next year around first or second week of August to see the teeth.

[T_MacWood]

Chip Oat
What is wrong with Jim's post (or any of the other posts on this thread that are critical or postive)? Their points are clear to me.

If you run across a golf course that doesn't succeed in incorporating the natural features, or has mundane features, or lacks variety, or possesses little drama are you going to think back to one or two holes as the culprits? Or consider if only one or two holes were only designed a different way? I don't think so and I don't care who the architect is.

Have you played OF....if so what is your opinion?

[John_Conley]

Chipoat, T-Macwood:

The site at Ocean Forest is that flat, lowcountry stuff with wetlands.  I don't think it lends itself to superb golf.  That said, the course caters to strong players and has a lot to test them.

[ChipOat]

Tom MacWood:

In my opinion, for what it's worth, I prefer that general opinions of "good", "bad", etc. have a specific example or two to give more "meat" to the writer's point of view.  That of course, means more time would be devoted to most every post which isn't always available to the "poster".  That's probably why I don't participate nearly as much myself, anymore.

When I do, I believe I give at least 1 example per opinion - particularly a negative one.

I have, in fact played Ocean Forest twice.  Since my opinions on Rees are more about aesthetics (mounds and bunkers) than architectural strategy, etc., I can only say that OF is more acceptable to me than Atlantic but is still not that distinctive regarding my personal preferences.

If it were me, I wouldn't use mounds and I'd shape my bunkers to look differently.  I prefer the McKenzie look, for instance.  I also prefer the look of the pre-restoration bunkers at Merion although it isn't that big a deal to me so long as they "play" well.

If I were to make a statement that "such and such a course" was really disappointing given the quality of the site (or words to that effect), I would give the folks in the Treehouse at least 1 specific example of what I'd do differently.

That's what I'm requesting.  I'm not challenging the opinion - I'm seeking further detail because I'm interested in what the writer envisions in his creative mind.

[bakerg]

I am not sure if anyone on here reads Cigar Affiaciando but there was an article on Bill Jones who runs Sea Island and he said that they are going to build another course down there.  Its going to be a Tom Fazio/ Michael Bollenback design.  Not sure if I spelled his name right, but its the Bollenback that was the head of the Royal and Ancient.