[Tom_Doak]

What makes 4 and 13 at Pacific Dunes great?

Would 4 be a more interesting hole with the left side fairway  bunkers removed?

Why would it be more interesting?  Everyone would just bomb it left, safely away from the cliff edge, even if it gave them a difficult angle to hold the green.

Lots of people do that now, anyway, even though the bunkers are there.  But others will lay up a bit off the tee to avoid the bunkers, or play a little closer to the right than they are really comfortable with because they are trying to avoid the bunkers.  And, being over on the left close to the bunkers is STILL out of position for the approach.  The closer you are to the cliff edge, the easier the second shot.

There is not as much man-made strategy to the 13th.  That hole is pretty much what God gave us, and it seemed irreverant to think of messing with it very much.  There is plenty of strategy elsewhere on the course.

[Jim Adkisson]

I love the challenge of hitting my draw/hook out over the cliff on 4 and bring it back to a good position.  And 13 is very difficult to aim up the center so my (hopefully only) draw can hit the speed slot close to the cliff and get the extra 20-30 yards.  

Both holes.  Hit as close to the cliff as you can get your gut to accept.  

Love me both.  

Looking forward to great weather this weekend.  

[Jeff Tang]

What makes 4 and 13 at Pacific Dunes great?

Would 4 be a more interesting hole with the left side fairway  bunkers removed?

Why would it be more interesting?  Everyone would just bomb it left, safely away from the cliff edge, even if it gave them a difficult angle to hold the green.

Lots of people do that now, anyway, even though the bunkers are there.  But others will lay up a bit off the tee to avoid the bunkers, or play a little closer to the right than they are really comfortable with because they are trying to avoid the bunkers.  And, being over on the left close to the bunkers is STILL out of position for the approach.  The closer you are to the cliff edge, the easier the second shot.

There is not as much man-made strategy to the 13th.  That hole is pretty much what God gave us, and it seemed irreverant to think of messing with it very much.  There is plenty of strategy elsewhere on the course.

That's funny, what Tom describes re: the 4th at PD is exactly what happened to me when I was last at Bandon last Summer.  Obviously the tee shot is an intimidating one with the Pacific all the way down the right and my first two plays there I was in the bunkers to the left of the fairway and made a big number each time.  The third time around I deliberately hit a club that I knew couldn't get to the bunkers down the left which made my target area from the tee much wider and I had about 200 yards in for my second shot which I was able to manage.  The bunkers down the left make it a much more demanding tee shot and I think a much better hole than if they weren't there.

[Connor Dougherty]

I'll give it a go with Old Mac now in existence

1. BT
2. PD
3. PD (Trails' is a close second, but the holes are similar)
4. OM (Love me some Hog's Back, and it's a tough decision as the 4's are very strong across the property)
5. BD
6. PD
7. BT (with PD and OM as very, very close seconds)
8. PD (Or OM, who knows, both are tremendous)
9. BT
10. BD
11. PD (And the Road Hole on OM is quite close as well)
12. OM
13. PD
14. BT
15. OM (BT a close second)
16. BD
17. BT (BD in second, one of the better holes on that golf course
18. OM (BT, post renovation, is a close second)

[Mark Saltzman]

What makes 4 and 13 at Pacific Dunes great?

Would 4 be a more interesting hole with the left side fairway  bunkers removed?

Why would it be more interesting?  Everyone would just bomb it left, safely away from the cliff edge, even if it gave them a difficult angle to hold the green.

Lots of people do that now, anyway, even though the bunkers are there.  But others will lay up a bit off the tee to avoid the bunkers, or play a little closer to the right than they are really comfortable with because they are trying to avoid the bunkers.  And, being over on the left close to the bunkers is STILL out of position for the approach.  The closer you are to the cliff edge, the easier the second shot.

Tom, I don't agree.

The Line of Instinct, while perhaps a bit of a mumbo-jumbo theoretical concept, is in practice a powerful effect.  It is remarkable how often golfers are drawn to the direct line of the flag, even when considerable challenges lay along that line.  Even in instances where the direct line is not the ideal line (or at lease offers little or no advantage), golfers are drawn to that line.  

Look at the 8th hole at Pacific Dunes.  The ideal play is the long route, well away from the inside of the bunker, and yet the golfer's instincts have him challenging the right hand bunker.  Even after repeat plays, it is a struggle to aim away from that side.

Look at Maiden at Old Macdonald.  We played the hole with little wind and to a centre pin.  There is little to be gained from playing near the bunkering on the left.  An approach from the left from 60 yards and an approach from the centre from 80 yards offer no meaningful difference.  And yet all in my group commented what a struggle it was to play away from the direct line to the hole.  Indeed half the group found that bunker.

Now, let's return to the 4th at Pacific.

Who exactly is going to just bombs away down the left?  The hole plays to 465/445 yards from the back two markers.  I'll grant you, the man that can carry the ball 250-300 yards will find the hole much easier with the removal of the bunkers.  But for someone like me, who carries the ball 225 yards, the hole will be made far more interesting.

From the 465 yard tee, the hole played driver-3w for me.  From 420, I hit driver 5-iron.  How many, even if they really could fight the desire to take on the straight line, are purposely going to lengthen such a long hole by playing to the left?

And even if they do, they now have a 200+ yard approach that must either flirt with the ocean on the right, or risk landing on the kicker left, which can very well shoot the ball into the ocean.  Isn't that a preferable and more interesting option than what they have now, should they bail out left (that is, no option but to pitch out from the bunkers).

I think removing the bunkers does not make the drive less interesting, it makes it less penal, and the hole, on the whole, more interesting.

[William_G]

I have to agree with Mark re: #4 at Pacific...the drive is the most feared at the resort, yet the hole could be one of the best if the second shot were more interesting, and the second shot is so dictated by the bunkering on the left that it negates an opportunity for better use of the Pacific Ocean on the approach shot

such nitpicking LOL, yet for the #2 Modern, comes with the territory    

[Mac Plumart]

Saltzman...great post!

[Sven Nilsen]

Wanted to follow up on the thoughts on this thread by linking back to the discussion of the 4th in Tim Bert's PD photo thread (found here:  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34744.msg700687.html#msg700687).  Tom's response regarding not building anything that competed with the setting was an interesting sentiment.  And I think he accomplished that in the way the player cannot escape the presence of the fall off on the right (as an aside, I always crack up when someone says they hit it into the ocean on 4, as that would take a particularly awful shot to actually reach the water).

In my mind, the 4th is a hole that has to be negotiated by first figuring out the optimal angle into the green.  Its one case where the line of instinct (as described by Mark) matches the best line for an approach, as the straight line to the pin off the tee will leave the best angle.  But the presence of the cliff edge raises that bit of doubt, and the player is left having to combat the fear of going right.  I appreciate the way the hole almost imposes the cliff edge on the line of play, with the pinching bunkers on the left serving as a subtle guide back to the chasm that raises the level of discomfort just a bit higher.

I also think this hole needs to be discussed based on how it plays under the winter and summer winds.  A discussion of any hole on the property is lacking unless you factor in the wind.  In this case, we have two very different holes depending on whether it is downwind or into it.  At 450 yards, it may be driver/9 iron when its with you, and possibly a three shotter into it.  When downwind, you have to factor in the run out on your tee shot, as the subtle curves to the cliff edge might just catch a ball that rolls too far.  And when you're into it, the safe play may be towards the bunkers, but the layup back to the fairway brings the fall off very much in play.

I learned after a few plays that if you do go left, you're better off not going for the green in two.  The play is not to challenge the greenside bunker and the downhill kick off the dune (with the result often being the discovery of your golf ball in the back right bunker), but to play short to give yourself a reasonable chance at an up and down.  And often, that layup is further back from the green than you might desire.  

I suspect that without the "steering" bunkers on the left, the complaints for this hole would be that the approach is too difficult.

Sven

[Michael George]

Mark:

Is what you describe the 13th hole at Pacific Dunes?  If TD removed left bunkers and made it wide open, I think it would be too similar to the 13th at Pacific Dunes (even thought the 13th plays to a raised green and in a different direction).   Also, even if you believe that removing the bunker provides a better strategic hole, I think the need for variety is as important.

Now if you want to talk about the need to remove the back left bunker of the 16th green, I would agree fully.  I think if Bandon took statistics of people that land in that bunker, nearly 100% end up picking up on the hole....which is never a good result to an otherwise wonderful hole.  My caddie (who had been at Bandon for years) told me to play the hole as follows (which I did and took par during both of my rounds):  (1) just hit your drive into the swale right of the green (ie. take your lumps off the tee), (2) putt up the swale to the front portion of the green using the chipping area front left of the green as  backstop, and (3) try to 2 putt for par.  He said, otherwise, you will be in the swale or back left bunker in 2 (as the green is so narrow and difficult) and taking bogey or much worse (if in the back left bunker).



 

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Now if you want to talk about the need to remove the back left bunker of the 16th green, I would agree fully.  I think if Bandon took statistics of people that land in that bunker, nearly 100% end up picking up on the hole....

I love #16 at Pacific Dunes, but I had to laugh when I read Michael's comment about the back left bunker.

Below is a photo of me a few minutes and several slashes before I picked-up - notice the wry smile on my caddie's face as well...

[Jeff_Lewis]

FINALLY played Trails and Old Mac.  Loved them both.   The green conditions across the resort were not great, nothing rolling above 9, but still a magical time at Bandon.

My two cents:
1. BT
2. BT
3. OM
4. PD
5. OM
6. OM
7. BT
8. PD, but close with BT and OM
9. PD
10. PD (crazy strong across the property)
11. PD
12. PD (also strong across the board)
13. PD
14. PD
15. BT
16. BD (strongest across the board?)
17. BT
18 OM (weakest group of holes?)

OM 4
BT 5
BD 1
PD 8

When I gave each hole a score from 1-5 my totals were PD 78, BT 76, OM 75 and BD 69.   

The three are pretty consistently amazing for me.  The fourth just doesn't measure up to the others.   But what a place!

And the par 3 might be the best course on the property.

[Michael George]

1.  Bandon Trails -   The walk up the path to the tee is a wonderful start to the journey that is Bandon Trails.  Wonderfully entertaining drive and approach on this hole.  I love the location of BD, but the hole suffers otherwise.  OM is very solid and certainly 2nd here.
2.  Pacific Dunes - The Shoe bunker is one of the best placed bunkers on the property.  Also love BT 2.   
3.  Old Macdonald - If you subscribe to the theory that golf is supposed to be fun, then how can you not pick the most fun drive at the resort, followed by one of the biggest wow moments when you reach the top of the hill.  Incredibly strong group of holes though.  Maybe best grouping of the 18.
4.  Bandon Dunes - This is a very close one with Pacific Dunes.  I like holes that reveal themselves as you play them.  BD #4 does that.  PD #4 is pretty much in front of you from the tee. 
5.  Bandon Dunes - Another close one with Old MacDonald #5, as that green is my favorite on the property.  However, BD has a very special feel between the dunes.  OM #5 is probably better design though. 
6.  Pacific Dunes - as great as the ocean holes are on PD, I think the great strength of this course is the inland holes.  This is a great and strategic short par 4.  I also enjoyed BD #6 and OM #6 has a great and interesting green.
7.  Old MacDonald - One of the truly unique approach shots in all of golf.  I could hit balls all day into this green.  Difficult not to pick Pacific Dunes #7, as I think it is the best inland hole on PD.   These 2 are far ahead of BT #7 and BD #7.
8.  Bandon Trails - I think OM #8 will win more votes here, but this is a really great drivable par 4 with many options off the tee.  PD #8 is actually my 2nd choice.  BD is definitely 4th pick here.
9.  Pacific Dunes - funny that I think most 9th holes on the property are the weakest.  This is by far the best of the bunch.
10.  Pacific Dunes - a par 3 that plays totally different from the 2 different tees.  Variety in a par 3 is incredibly difficult to find, but PD #10 has it.  Love OM #10 green, but PD is better in its entirety.
11.  Bandon Trails - it is really tough not to pick #11 at Pacific Dunes, but BT #11 is just great (I love holes where if you risk a bunker, there is a speed slot).  Maybe it is 1a and 1b as both are way better than OM and BD
12.  Bandon Dunes - the dune on the right of the green makes the hole (like BT #12 which is extremely underrated).
13.  Pacific Dunes - a tough call between BT and PD, but PD may be the best hole on the property (along with BD #16).
14.  Bandon Trails - while I hate the hike up the hill, I like BT #14.  It is a really fun tee shot, followed by fun shots afterwards.   OM is a close 2nd.
15.  Old Macdonald - a truly majestic par 5.  BT is a great hole too, but OM carries this one.
16.  Bandon Dunes - my favorite hole on the property.  A true shame that OM Alps runs up against it though as it is incredible too
17.  Bandon Trails - another close one with PD #17.
18.  OM - I think this is such a great way to finish this hole.  PD is only hole close.  Other 2 finishers are disappointing.

If you are looking for bias, I rank the courses at Bandon - (1) PD, (2) BT, (3) OM, (4) BD. 

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