Kick plates in greens

[Tim Bert]

What is a DZ?

Think it is driving zone

[Mark McKeever]

The St. Martins course at Philly Cricket (hole 3) has a great kick plate on the left side.  If you hit it right it will go most of the way across the green!

MM

[Jim Franklin]

Tom Doak,

What's your intent behind introducing them ?

Patrick:

Some of the kick plates I referred to are inside the greens, some on the approach.  Most are more subtle than the ones pictured, but a few, like the 7th green at Ballyneal or the 9th at Tara Iti, are not subtle at all.

My interest in them is that they make it easier for the golfer who has left himself a certain angle of approach, and harder for the golfer who comes in from a different angle.  Ditto for their effect on recovery shots around the green.

They're also cool to look at.

This is why I love RCCC so much.

[SteveOgulukian]

Steve,

I rmembered the 8th at Yale this morning.

I don't recall a kick plate in the green on # 6 at The Creek

Pat, I'm not 100% sure if the kick plate at The Creek is technically on the green or not but I believe that it's a mixture of a punchbowl with a part of the kick plate being on the green.

[MCirba]

Steve,

Yes, the kickplate on the 6th at The Creek is external and internal to the green, and it's a very cool one.  Thanks!

[SL_Solow]

Of course Pat's initial post questioned why modern courses rarely featured kick plates so the multitude of golden age examples are beside the point.  To the positive side, Tom Doak's reply and those pointing out the frequent use by C & C are encouraging for the fans of this feature along with others such as Jeff Brauer.  For a hybrid, Pat I have tried to get you to Chicago so I can host you at Briarwood.  when we did the renovation of our 1921 Colt & Alison, the 14th had been ruined and we did not have plans to restore it.  So Mark Mungeam built a beauty borrowing reverse Redan features which play quite well.  Anew hole on a golden age course; something of a hybrid.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

When you say that you've built alot of these, is it because you just happened to find the terrain that accomodated the feature or because you added the feature, vis a vis construction ?

[Sean_A]

I am not sure if its a kick plate, but balls will roll off the slope and back onto the green, but the bank behind Kington's 14th is one of my favourite of this type.  Its a clever feature for the golfers who recognize the danger of the shot and instead aim at the kick plate regardless of where the hole is located. Even from well back in the fairway the kick plate (left of the flag to rearof green) is visible, if not fully understood.  Strange that such an obviously man-made feature should be ignored by so many.



Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

When you say that you've built alot of these, is it because you just happened to find the terrain that accomodated the feature or because you added the feature, vis a vis construction ?

All of the examples I gave were of natural slopes that were incorporated into the green or the approach.  I've created such a feature on rare occasions, but usually they are natural.

[Carl Rogers]

All of the examples I gave were of natural slopes that were incorporated into the green or the approach.  I've created such a feature on rare occasions, but usually they are natural.
[/quote]
Such as hole 8 at Pacific Dunes?

[Tom_Doak]

All of the examples I gave were of natural slopes that were incorporated into the green or the approach.  I've created such a feature on rare occasions, but usually they are natural.

Such as hole 8 at Pacific Dunes?
[/quote]

The slope to the right of the 8th green at Pacific Dunes is only half natural.  We had to cut some of the swale on the right out of an existing bank, and use that fill material to build the front left portion of the green.  But there was a steep slope to the right of the green to start with, that's what gave me the idea of imitating a green I'd seen in England ... the 3rd at Woking.

[Peter Pallotta]

Kick plates short right -- the best gift an architect can give the average golfer, and all the more special (if packaged right) for not looking like a gift at all. The rabbit's weak fade magically transformed into the smart play, his ball trundling safely onto the green while the tiger's majestic and towering approach lands hard and bounds over.

There are reasons why C&C and Tom and the old greats are beloved by 10 handicappers, and one of them is their (subtle) generosity, a kind that allows the rabbit to, on occassion, truly feel like a tiger.
Peter

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kick plates short right -- the best gift an architect can give the average golfer, and all the more special (if packaged right) for not looking like a gift at all. The rabbit's weak fade magically transformed into the smart play, his ball trundling safely onto the green while the tiger's majestic and towering approach lands hard and bounds over.

There are reasons why C&C and Tom and the old greats are beloved by 10 handicappers, and one of them is their (subtle) generosity, a kind that allows the rabbit to, on occassion, truly feel like a tiger.
Peter

Completely agree, Peter. I do like a kick-mound / plate short right of a green for this reason. Lovely to see a ball feed in.

Bear in mind that the ones short of a green are easier to achieve effectively on good soil.

[Carl Nichols]

Of course Pat's initial post questioned why modern courses rarely featured kick plates so the multitude of golden age examples are beside the point.  To the positive side, Tom Doak's reply and those pointing out the frequent use by C & C are encouraging for the fans of this feature along with others such as Jeff Brauer.  For a hybrid, Pat I have tried to get you to Chicago so I can host you at Briarwood.  when we did the renovation of our 1921 Colt & Alison, the 14th had been ruined and we did not have plans to restore it.  So Mark Mungeam built a beauty borrowing reverse Redan features which play quite well.  Anew hole on a golden age course; something of a hybrid.

That's why I mentioned Four Streams and RTJ in DC . . . both modern.

[SL_Solow]

Carl, duly noted.  Moreover, its not that I don't appreciate the old masters, its just that Pat apparently was of the view that the feature had been abandoned by the moderns.  Your references, Tom's and others go directly to the question

[Patrick_Mucci]

SL,

In my limited play of modern designs I haven't noticed an abundance of kick plates within putting surfaces.

I'd be curious to know what courses created after 1960 have this feature and what modern day designers incorporate them routinely.

[SL_Solow]

That is how I understood your original post.  Some have responded relevantly as noted

[Bill Brightly]

Kick plates short right -- the best gift an architect can give the average golfer, and all the more special (if packaged right) for not looking like a gift at all. The rabbit's weak fade magically transformed into the smart play, his ball trundling safely onto the green while the tiger's majestic and towering approach lands hard and bounds over.

There are reasons why C&C and Tom and the old greats are beloved by 10 handicappers, and one of them is their (subtle) generosity, a kind that allows the rabbit to, on occassion, truly feel like a tiger.
Peter

Completely agree, Peter. I do like a kick-mound / plate short right of a green for this reason. Lovely to see a ball feed in.

Bear in mind that the ones short of a green are easier to achieve effectively on good soil.

This really is a huge point that Peter and Ally raise. The failure of former players to design for the 10+ handicap is perhaps their biggest failure. T.D.'s thinking about how his mother woud be able to get around his courses is a major strength. As a low single digit handicap, it took me years to appreciate this. I've come to believe that it is easy to design hard golf holes. It takes great talent to build a holes that challenge the best players yet allow all others to be able to have fun on the hole.

A front right kick plate is irrelevant to scratch golfers. Especially short of the green. Their drives are so long that they can fly the ball to the pin. But An effective kick plate will get FAR more use by the 10+ handicaps, and I find myself using ours all too often these days...

[Sean_A]

I kind of like the idea of a kick plate that will not get your ball near the hole that often.  In other words, its a safe play to use the kick plate.  JUst as Pietro mentions, we have one at Burnham on the 13th.  Its a bear of a par 5 which is very narrow topped by a long narrow green.  As the land slides right, it is very easy to leak even the shortest approaches of right down the bank.  Yet there is a bank front right which can be used to  keep balls on the putting surface, but most of the time this play will leave a lengthy two-putt.  The kick is quite evident in this photo...but notice where the flag is.


Ciao
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mountain Ridge has a great kick plate in the left side of the 1st green.

It works for you if you hit your drive down the right side of the fairway.

It can work against you if your drive is down the left side of the fairway.

Very unique.

[Dean Paolucci]

I believe the front of the 7th hole green at Sleepy Hollow may qualify as a major kick plate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The Redan kick plate is probably the most obvious and most talked about.

It's also been a relevant design and playability feature for over 100 years.

The neat thing about the kick plate is that it functions well for both the ground and aerial game.

Some Redan like greens, like the 3rd on the 4th nine at Montclair, don't have an effective kick plate.

So much of the kick plate's function is dependent upon the angle of the incoming shot.

It could act as a back stop or a kick plate, depending upon the angle.