Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA

[MCirba]

David,

Horse drawn carriages and carts crossed and populated our nation but that didn't mean you could drive a automobile across those routes the pioneers travelled.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I get the feeling sometimes that some of you would argue about a stump. In fact, you might argue WITH a stump.

You can win an argument with a stump.

[MCirba]

And some just love to sit here and deliver stump speeches fairly oblivious to all evidence to the contrary. 

[Terry Lavin]

Just leaves me stumped, I guess.

[Peter Pallotta]

I can't believe you guys are forgetting the example from "The Great Escape". Those irrepressible POWs moved tons of dirt dug out from secret tunnels and disposed of it all in little tablespoon-sized portions dropped over and over again from inside their pants, right in front of the unsuspecting Germans! Perhaps you should all go back and read Scotland's Gift a little more carefully, because right in there CBM describes utiliizing the exact same process, except without the Australians...

Peter  

[DMoriarty]

David,

Yes, they'd need a road/roads but wouldn't they have been just dirt paths.  No need to built an improved road.  Any idea on how real roads were built in those time - dozers came later than that didn't they?

Bryan, Where I come from there oftentimes wasn't much difference between a dirt path and a road, but weather and soil permitting the dirt paths were still suprisingly functional.  I imagine it was the same out there.  The road(s) had to have been improved enough to handle 10,000 loads of topsoil (whether by wagon, truck, or railcar) plus any other equipment needed fill and drain, shape, seed, transport workers and supplies, etc.
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David,

Horse drawn carriages and carts crossed and populated our nation but that didn't mean you could drive a automobile across those routes the pioneers travelled.

Mike do you actually consciously consider what you type, or does this nonsense just flow through your fingers spontaneously?  

[JLahrman]

I can't believe you guys are forgetting the example from "The Great Escape". Those irrepressible POWs moved tons of dirt dug out from secret tunnels and disposed of it all in little tablespoon-sized portions dropped over and over again from inside their pants, right in front of the unsuspecting Germans! Perhaps you should all go back and read Scotland's Gift a little more carefully, because right in there CBM describes utiliizing the exact same process, except without the Australians...

Peter  

The amazing part is that Warden Norton apparently hadn't seen that movie because if he had he wouldn't have been outsmarted by Andy Dufresne.

[Peter Pallotta]

JL - you're right, and I'd never thought of that. But also, maybe Andy didn't see the movie either. He seemed so troubled and uptight through the whole thing that I kept wishing he'd just pick up a baseball and sit down with his back against the wall and be cool....

Peter

[Joe Hancock]

Could it be possible the topsoil that was imported was specifically for better turf growing conditions? Remember, back then irrigation was difficult at best. Now we herald sandy sites as ideal, but with the caveat that we have limitless amounts of irrigation water that can be distributed at will. That likely wasn't the case back then.

[BCowan]

Joe,

    You keep making critical thinking points.  Why all the deviating from the 3 by 5 card of approved GCA talking points???   

[Sven Nilsen]

CBM discussed the importance of the right soil as early as March 1906, before the site had been decided on. 

Golf Magazine - March 1906

[Sven Nilsen]

From the horse's mouth, the state of the turf in early 1908 (also some interesting commentary on the playability of the course at that point) -

New York Daily Tribune - Feb. 3, 1908

[DMoriarty]

Could it be possible the topsoil that was imported was specifically for better turf growing conditions? Remember, back then irrigation was difficult at best. Now we herald sandy sites as ideal, but with the caveat that we have limitless amounts of irrigation water that can be distributed at will. That likely wasn't the case back then.

Joe, That is precisely what the topsoil and manure were for.  CBM had said the land was impoverished in places and had to be top dressed, and the 10,000 loads were "good soil, including manure."

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Joe,

    You keep making critical thinking points.  Why all the deviating from the 3 by 5 card of approved GCA talking points???

Ben Cowan,  Maybe if you had actually read the posts before getting snarky you'd realize that I already addressed Joe's point in post 10.  
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Sven,

Thanks for posting that article, and the one on the other thread. The other one mentions irrigation as if it had just been added.  I wonder if the delay with the grow in over the next year was because of lack of moisture?

[Jim Nugent]

How long did it take to deliver the 10,000 loads of soil?  If a year, and they worked 300 days, that averages around 30 loads per day.  Does that sound reasonable, given the state of the roads and trucks (if they used trucks)? 

Also, I wonder where the soil came from, whether it was close by or not. 

[Mike_Young]

I doubt a load of dirt at tthat time was more than 5 cubic yards at best.  So let's say he brought in 50,000 cubic yards.  If the land was 150 acres he would have approx 6,750,000 sq ft to cap.  My calculation says he could have placed 2.5 inches of soil on the land.    I would bet some soil was brought in in smaller loads and used in a greens mixture etc....JMO

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Thanks for posting that article, and the one on the other thread. The other one mentions irrigation as if it had just been added.  I wonder if the delay with the grow in over the next year was because of lack of moisture?

David:

There were reports of a drought that hampered the process, among other factors.

Sven

Brooklyn Daily Eagle - Aug. 15, 1909

[MCirba]

Copied from the other thread for those who are only following this discussion;

As regards the extended grow-in period, and what at least some of the imported soil was used for, I decided to go to the CBM "Bible", none of than Uncle George Bahto and Gib Papazian's "The Evangelist of Golf".

From pages 66-67, entitled "Disaster on the Greens" 1907-1908", I've posted relevant paragraphs below;

When Charles Macdonald began building the course in 1907, little was known about proper seed mixtures on putting greens - in particular about growing fine grass on the sandy soil such as at Southampton....

...Seed merchants at that time went by the principle that if many types of grass seed were incorporated into the blend, something was sure to grow.   Consequently, the putting mixtures of the day were a blend of "every sort of seed, from fine fescue to rank meadow grass."  Naturally, the coarsest grasses germinated first, eventually turning the planted areas into ugly, unmanageable clumps.

Macdonald, trusting the knowledge of the seed merchant, used this mixture for the first seeding - with disastrous results.   Robert White, the eminent golf course architect and close friend of Macdonald wrote in 1914:

"At the end of the year's time the greens resembled cabbage patches.   What grasses they contained grew in thick tufts with bare spaces between.   Most of the National's greens had to be made all over again.   Those that were not ploughed up had bad grass in them for several years afterward.

As a result of this debacle, according to White, the opening of the National was thrown back 18 months.   Macdonald was flabbergasted.   During the ensuing months, he initiated a thorough study and established an extensive turf nursery....

...He discovered there was far less loam in the sandy soil of Long Island than there was in similarly situated areas in Scotland and England....

...He reached two conclusions...

...First the soil had to be properly prepared.   In order to preserve moisture in the turf, he had blocks of "meadow sod" turned into the ground.   Limestone, with a quantity of sandy loam, was added to sweeten the soil....

...Because not all greens needed to be plowed under, there were originally several varieties of grass on some of the greens....

...After a year of battling the porous soil of Long Island, it was evident that a complete watering system would be needed.   Out of this necessity, Macdonald designed and installed America's first golf course irrigation system; one capable of delivering 300 gallons per minute to the putting greens and approach areas.   The gravity fed water was delivered from a tower between the 2nd and 16th greens - now the site of the landmark windmill.

In January of 1910, this snippet from a Harper's Weekly article talks more about the irrigation system and how the greens were finally prepared;

[DMoriarty]

How long did it take to deliver the 10,000 loads of soil?  If a year, and they worked 300 days, that averages around 30 loads per day.  Does that sound reasonable, given the state of the roads and trucks (if they used trucks)? 

Also, I wonder where the soil came from, whether it was close by or not. 

I don't know where it came from, but my guess would be that it came in bulk by train. There were two stations very close to the course, so the round trip for trucks or wagon (or a short spur, as one article suggested) would have been only a few miles.

[archie_struthers]

 


A  modern tandem dump holds approximately 22-23 tons of dirt . Have to think the  trucks of that era wouldn't have carried more than 10 tons per load. This would be a paltry 100,000 tons , hardly enough to change the profile dramatically .

Maybe I'm missing something here , it wouldn't the the first time !

[DMoriarty]

Your estimate on truck capacity might be on the high side.  Manhattan's (Mack) largest dump truck was a 5-ton.  

The loads were topsoil and manure, for growing grass in places where grass would not grow.

[archie_struthers]

 


Figured I'd go high , seems that six tons may have been norm in 1905.   The premise  stated that it wasn't enough to change the nature of the sites soils seems logical. You would have to bring in a lot more fill and then integrate it somehow to accomplish a real change.

[Sven Nilsen]

CBM wrote about them using 140 tons of compost per acre for the fairways (at a depth of 1 inch).  Add in what they were using for the greens, and whatever other materials were needed and it seems about right.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Based upon the weight of a ton of soil, those "loads" whether delivered by horse drawn wagons or trucks would have to use a very stable, solid surface and not just a dirt path as Bryan suggests.

Those vehicles made 20,000 trips to and from NGLA, with 10,000 of those trips being with heavily weighted vehicles.

DMoriarty,

I would seriously doubt if the soil was brought in by train.
That would be expensive.
My guess is that it was brought in "locally"

I would also doubt that significant quantities of soil were required for the higher holes.

My theory on the 8th green is that the excavation of the left side of the 9th fairway area and perhaps to the right of # 8 green produced the necessary soil