[Tim_Cronin]

Maybe someone can dig up the old thread on caddie liability, or lack thereof, and move this part of the discussion there.

As for Mike Keiser, remember he comes from Chicago, where the caddie is not an endangered species thanks to enlightened clubs, including those Mike belongs to, and the Western Golf Association and their Evans Scholarship, which has financed the college education of nearly 10,000 caddies since 1930.

[William_G]

Jud,

Tom has said that Mike made him tone down the greens they wanted to build.

In two projects with him -- three, if you count Barnbougle, but Mike was never there during construction -- I have only once built a green and had Mike ask me to tone it down.  And that one [the upper 9th green at Pacific Dunes] was a very minor change.

I believe what I said is that he has made his preference known for flatter greens, and that we've tried to accommodate that, and think of other ways to make the course interesting and challenging.  That's why Pacific Dunes has somewhat smaller greens and more trouble around them, than some of my other courses.

Tom,

Interesting that PD is your only course that you've given a Doak 10, IIRC.  I'm sure the site is a big reason for that, however it's interesting that a slight departure from your norm is the course you seem to rate highest on your own scale.

my thoughts exactly!

[Jon Byron]

Great to read the interview you posted.  I spent 5 days this Sep at Bandon Dunes and as a first timer had very high expectations - as you might expect it exceeded all of my expectations.  And to the extent that I could I quickly became very curious about just who Keiser is so it is great to hear more from and about him.  What a treasure for golf he is, creating true, playable, enjoyable, walking golf, and much needed in USA right now.  I wish many others in the business of golf would get the message.

[Jim Nugent]

If Keiser's Wisconsin project goes through, he's breaking one key part of his own success formula: the ocean.  

[Steve Lang]

   there's water in them thar hills of wisconsin, oh, and Lake Michigan might as well be an ocean... where's the new adventure?

I've met MK and certainly applaud his activities in bringing great golf to the land, but every time I hear "retail golfer" I cringe.   It's like when the cash register has just been shut and the little bell has rung... "Thankyou, please come again."  It may have been great XYZ, but did I really have to spend that much?  I guess so, but sure don't want to make a habit of it.

[Terry Lavin]

If Keiser's Wisconsin project goes through, he's breaking one key part of his own success formula: the ocean.  

And there will be carts to my knowledge.

[William_G]

If Keiser's Wisconsin project goes through, he's breaking one key part of his own success formula: the ocean.  

And there will be carts to my knowledge.

wow, down the rabbit hole

[Tom_Doak]

I believe what I said is that Mr. Keiser has made his preference known for flatter greens, and that we've tried to accommodate that, and think of other ways to make the course interesting and challenging.  That's why Pacific Dunes has somewhat smaller greens and more trouble around them, than some of my other courses.

Tom,

Interesting that PD is your only course that you've given a Doak 10, IIRC.  I'm sure the site is a big reason for that, however it's interesting that a slight departure from your norm is the course you seem to rate highest on your own scale.

Yes, it's interesting.  But it could just be that it was the best piece of land of the bunch, or the first big success of my career, or the fact that this approach makes it a little bit different than my other courses.

The two other courses in my career that challenge Pacific as my best course, Barnbougle and Ballyneal, have some of the most severe greens I've ever built, so what conclusion can you draw from that?  That those greens ought to be flatter?  I think those greens are part of the reason those courses are so popular.  

[Andrew Buck]

Yes, it's interesting.  But it could just be that it was the best piece of land of the bunch, or the first big success of my career, or the fact that this approach makes it a little bit different than my other courses.

The two other courses in my career that challenge Pacific as my best course, Barnbougle and Ballyneal, have some of the most severe greens I've ever built, so what conclusion can you draw from that?  That those greens ought to be flatter?  I think those greens are part of the reason those courses are so popular.  
[/quote]

I'm really not trying to draw any conclusion, I just found it interesting.  It's certainly not indication that your other work should be altered.

I think it makes perfect sense in regards to the two US courses you mention that the private one should have more dramatic greens and the public one challenge in a more visible manner.  While your comments here would lead me to believe you don't set out with a desire to be "fair", I think repeat play is often a key to understanding "where" to hit approach shots into difficult greens.  While Bandon having caddies would somewhat diminish the need to have seen a course compared to other public venues, it does change enjoyment or strategy, at least to me if I will only have one attempt on a course and am fooled because things are blind.  

[William_G]

I believe what I said is that Mr. Keiser has made his preference known for flatter greens, and that we've tried to accommodate that, and think of other ways to make the course interesting and challenging.  That's why Pacific Dunes has somewhat smaller greens and more trouble around them, than some of my other courses.

Tom,

Interesting that PD is your only course that you've given a Doak 10, IIRC.  I'm sure the site is a big reason for that, however it's interesting that a slight departure from your norm is the course you seem to rate highest on your own scale.

Yes, it's interesting.  But it could just be that it was the best piece of land of the bunch, or the first big success of my career, or the fact that this approach makes it a little bit different than my other courses.

The two other courses in my career that challenge Pacific as my best course, Barnbougle and Ballyneal, have some of the most severe greens I've ever built, so what conclusion can you draw from that?  That those greens ought to be flatter?  I think those greens are part of the reason those courses are so popular.  

I'd have to say that Pacific is the best piece of property that Tom Doak has had, and it's interesting that if it had also had more severe greens, it may not have been as popular.

The other courses designed by Tom Doak are largely unknown to the rest of the world, and yet Sebonack (co-designed with Jack) looked and played pretty well this summer at the US Women's Open.

How many repeat clients does Tom Doak have besides Mike Keiser?

Fingers and toes crossed for Bandon Muni Links.

Cabot Cliffs could be fantastic.

The Punchbowl at Bandon a fun addition with the side benefits of ocean view improvement from the clubhouse and 1st tee.

[Tom_Doak]

How many repeat clients does Tom Doak have besides Mike Keiser?

Only the late Jack May, at Stonewall.

For the most part, my niche is clients who have always dreamed of building a great golf course.  Most of them don't build more than one.  And if they build more than one course in the same place, they are more than likely to pick a different designer so that they can promote two different designer's names -- sadly, even Mr. Keiser is not immune to that line of thinking.

But, how many of my past clients have ever hired someone else to design a different project?  I think it's only Mr. Keiser, and Larry Young from Myrtle Beach, who switched to Mike Strantz after we agreed to part ways.  There might be another somewhere, but I can't think of who it is.

[Adam Clayman]

Providing employment for 235 individuals, is considerably more honorable than making sure a club has all their pampered amenities paid for.

It's a shame the journalist didn't do better research. Youngscap and Keiser were working on the same model at the same time. It just took MK longer to deal with all those left coasters.

[Paul_Daley]

Loving the push for caddies at golf clubs; seems the right way to boost future golf numbers.

Interesting thoughts by Mike Keiser on flat vs contoured greens. Whether a golf course’s greens are flat, undulating or tumultuous will always be a curiosity; but it has little impact on the venue’s overall success or popularity. However, it matters greatly that those green fit harmoniously to the topography. Golfers will notice and pass judgement with their feet. Take what Robert Trent Jones Jnr produced at Cape Schanck on the Mornington Peninsula in the mid-1980s. Each of his 36 greens pitches and falls like a drunken sailor; but only in keeping with the terrain leading up to the greens. Elsewhere, say an hour up the road on the courses that comprise Melbourne’s Sandbelt, these types of greens would be judged as grotesque. At Cape Schanck, they are magnificent, seemingly natural extensions of the landform. Surely, that is the trick.  
  

[BHoover]

Loving the push for caddies at golf clubs; seems the right way to boost future golf numbers.

I don't disagree that caddies are a great feature of the game, and it's fun to have the option of taking a caddie at a resort like Bandon or Pinehurst or wherever. But I'm not sure I agree that pushing caddies is a way to boost future golf numbers. It's one thing to offer caddies as an option, but it's another thing to require caddies. IMO it's a mistake to compel a golfer to take a caddie or a cart. If I'm a member at a club, I want the option to choose to carry my bag. That's one of the main reasons I chose to join my club. In fact, if I had to take either a cart or a caddie, being a regular golfer much less a member at my club would not be an option. I just don't have the kind of disposable income to pay for caddies on more than an occasional basis. I'd be willing to bet that many people, particularly many younger golfers, are in the same boat.

Caddies are a luxury, and they are a great feature of the game, but they are still a luxury. Caddies should not be required (nor should carts).

[William_G]

How many repeat clients does Tom Doak have besides Mike Keiser?

Only the late Jack May, at Stonewall.

For the most part, my niche is clients who have always dreamed of building a great golf course.  Most of them don't build more than one.  And if they build more than one course in the same place, they are more than likely to pick a different designer so that they can promote two different designer's names -- sadly, even Mr. Keiser is not immune to that line of thinking.

But, how many of my past clients have ever hired someone else to design a different project?  I think it's only Mr. Keiser, and Larry Young from Myrtle Beach, who switched to Mike Strantz after we agreed to part ways.  There might be another somewhere, but I can't think of who it is.

cannot do better than Mike Keiser  

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()