[Mike Hendren]

Not wishing to hijack the SHGC and NGLA thread, I am curious about the comments there regarding Merion and whether NGLA could be Davisized to host the U. S. Open.  While this is some major-league beard pulling and nit-picking I approach the issue from the following perspective:

1. Name the holes you fear at National Golf Links of America.  

2. Name the holes you fear at Merion Golf Club.

For me:

1.  None
2.  2, 3, 5, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18.

Bogey

[Alex Miller]

Not wishing to hijack the SHGC and NGLA thread, I am curious about the comments there regarding Merion and whether NGLA could be Davisized to host the U. S. Open.  While this is some major-league beard pulling and nit-picking I approach the issue from the following perspective:

1. Name the holes you fear at National Golf Links of America.  

2. Name the holes you fear at Merion Golf Club.

For me:

1.  None
2.  2, 3, 5, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18.

Bogey

That's just why I think it would work actually...

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not sure what would be the purpose of altering National beyond recognition in order to stage a U.S. Open there.

Then again, I'm still not sure what was the purpose of doing it to Merion.

P.S.  The fallacy of it all is the notion that the club will "change it back" after the tournament is over.  Any word from Merion on whether they've restored #12 green?  Of course they haven't ... because then they would have to cannibalize it AGAIN to host another Open somehwere down the line.  The carrot will always be dangling on the stick for these clubs.

P.P.S.  If I were a professional, every hole from #3 through #8 at National would scare me a little bit.  But really nothing after that.

[DMoriarty]

Mike, I don't understand the comparison.  You are comparing a course that hasn't been "Davisized" (thank goodness) to one that was "Davisized" long ago.   Davisized courses may be scarier, but they aren't necessarily better.

Merion's greens make it a worthy and interesting championship venue despite what they have done to the rest of the course.  NGLA has a pretty good set of greens, too, and so if they "Davisized" NGLA, it would probably produce a scary blood-bath of a US Open.  But lets not give them any ideas.  

[Gene Greco]

    I  believe 11 with pins cut on the plateaus and 12 with its upside down soup bowl of a green would also be cause for their concern. Under Open conditions a pinched fairway on Narrows with psycho pin placements on that half mountain of a green might give them pause.
However, all this is moot because there will never be a US Open at NGLA.

[JESII]

7 at Merion scars the hell out of me because I cannot keep it out of the neighborhood.

13 scares me because my average n the hole over the last several rounds is about 5.

[Bill_McBride]

I loved the aggravation #17 NGLA caused to top level kids who could knock their tee balls into the greensude bunkers past the berm.  I wonder what was the aggregate score?   I know that was match play, but it just points out how difficult to score it can be on an NGLA course that many would say is "too short."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak & Mike,

I'd love to have the opportunity to see if I could scare you at NGLA.

The first hole, that little bitty 310 yarder has to have the scariest 1st green in golf.

In a qualifying event or for cash, I bet I could scare you.
I'm scared every time I walk up on the first tee at NGLA.

As to holes after # 8,
Downwind, or with any wind, # 11 with the hole cut on the upper left plateau is scary.

On # 12, with the hole cut behind the spine in any wind is scary.

The tee shot on # 14 is scary and with a wind out of the north, it's downright scary.

# 15 can be terrifying when there's a wind and/or the hole is cut back left/right

And, # 18, ahhh, # 18.

How about I let you drop a ball  at 25, 50, 75, 100, 125 and 150 yards from the center of the green, as if that's where your second shot ended up, with the hole cut all the way back, and we bet on you making par.  Not birdie, but par.  All you'll have to do is knock it on the green and two putt.

All I can say is that Bill Salinetti and I could retire after a couple of days of watching you not be scared  

I think there's something else that everyone seems to forget.

The immediate rough off the fairway is about as benign as you can find at NGLA.

Merion employs deep, lush rough to protect against par.

And, there, I think is where the difference in cultures lies.

NGLA doesn't care about protecting par, whereas Merion is obsessed with it.

Yes, I know that NGLA changed par on # 5, but, the hole only played 466 from the members tees (green) and 478 from the championship tees (red) and NGLA tries to present the course as F&F.

One only has to look at Historicaerials.com to see how the fairways have been shrunk at Merion over the years.
Why ?
For two reasons.
To host U.S. Opens and to protect par.
Merion is a wonderful golf course, but, it would be far, far more enjoyable if the fairway widths were returned to their pre-Open configurations and the rough made less penal.

Unfortunately, some courses feel the need to present themselves as very difficult challenges, and in pursuit of that goal, narrowed fairways and penal rough are part of that process.

If NGLA narrowed its fairways and cultivated deep lush rough, it would lose it's soul.

[Jim Nugent]

Pat (or anyone), suppose they hold the Open at NGLA.  (Sounds like they won't, but just suppose.)  Fast and firm conditions.  They stretch out holes where it's possible and makes sense.  You (Pat Mucci) set the pin placements.  

What does the winner score over 72 holes?

What is the cutline?

What are the low and high scores of the tournament?  

ETA: I forgot to add, the USGA does not change the course in any other way.  They don't grow the rough, add trees or narrow the fairways. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I have absolutely no idea.

But, don't forget two things.

Those guys are really great and Mother Nature is fickle.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Not wishing to hijack the SHGC and NGLA thread, I am curious about the comments there regarding Merion and whether NGLA could be Davisized to host the U. S. Open.  While this is some major-league beard pulling and nit-picking I approach the issue from the following perspective:

1. Name the holes you fear at National Golf Links of America.  

2. Name the holes you fear at Merion Golf Club.

For me:

1.  None
2.  2, 3, 5, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18.

Bogey

So what does that exactly mean? (in regards to not fearing any holes at National)

How many times have you played the golf course?

Are you a + handicap?


It's not that any holes scare me in golf, after all, you can't get hurt...but I do know to lock in and pay attention to the strategy on every hole at National; not for fear of making a bad number, but out of desire to make the best possible score on each hole based on executing the shot at hand which nearly always determines the difficulty of the next shot.

I guess it all depends on what your definition of "fear" is in golf. But if you are talking about being able to be relaxed over the ball and hit it wherever you want without penalty, then I don't know what golf course you played....I believe CBM would be pretty disappointed if that is what you're implying.

[Mike Hendren]

Mike, I fear the "X."  More specifically, the conundrum as to whether to pick up after reaching double before holing out.  I fear being exposed as a has-been, a never-was, a hack with several excellent excuses.  Architectural greatness can either expose me as such, or accomodate/pity me by providing one great stroll through the park.   A mid-to-high capper can bunt the ball around National Golf Links of America (pretty high architectural praise in my book) but might have no business playing Merion.   That doesn't not mean they aren't architectural peers.

Again, my comments were in the context of the debate as to whether NGLA could host the U. S. Open without yielding record low scores.  

To answer your question, I've played NGLA one time.  Perhaps I'm naive but I don't buy the need to play such a course 50 times under all conditions (easy for CB and The Mooch to say since they had/have pretty good access) to grasp every single nuance.  

In my opinion, NLGA is easier than Merion Davisized or not, at least for the 14 handicapper who grasps the game, if not the execution of golf shots.   

Bogey

[Tom_Doak]

If they did narrow the fairways at National to 25 yards and grow the rough, all of those unfearsome cross bunkers would suddenly take on new life.

[DMoriarty]

For me this thought experiment reinforces the folly of narrowing these great courses down to protect par.  

Does anyone think NGLA would be a better golf course were it prepared to Merion/US Open specifications?

Does anyone think that Merion would NOT be a better golf course if it were prepared more along the lines of NGLA?
__________________________________________


Bogey, perhaps your fear has something to do with all the strategic out-of-bounds at Merion?  No out-of-bounds at NGLA

[Ronald Montesano]

Disclaimer: Have not played NGLA. Walked it countless times (I can't count past three) during the Friday-Sunday of Walker Cup

Pat (or anyone), suppose they hold the Open at NGLA.  (Sounds like they won't, but just suppose.)  Fast and firm conditions.  They stretch out holes where it's possible and makes sense.  You (Pat Mucci) set the pin placements.  

What does the winner score over 72 holes?

270

What is the cutline?

148

What are the low and high scores of the tournament?  

62 and $%&!

ETA: I forgot to add, the USGA does not change the course in any other way.  They don't grow the rough, add trees or narrow the fairways.

As Pat said, and as so many of us/you forget/have no freaking clue, these are the best of the best of the best, sir. They do things with the golf ball, on command, that you and I cannot envision, imagine, conceptualize. They are tournament-tested, practice-steeled savants. They drive the ball so damned far and so damned straight that many par fours at NGLA would be one-shot affairs. They hit wedges so tight that they could ALL leave driver in the trunk, all four tournament days, and still shoot the scores I put above. And if a guy got hot with the putter...look out.

I'm always stunned by the number of people who think that their/my game has anything in common with that of a pro. Think of the most skilled practitioner of your profession and what she/he would do with a daily occurrence at your office. That's a golf pro.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Mike, I fear the "X."  More specifically, the conundrum as to whether to pick up after reaching double before holing out.  I fear being exposed as a has-been, a never-was, a hack with several excellent excuses.  Architectural greatness can either expose me as such, or accomodate/pity me by providing one great stroll through the park.   A mid-to-high capper can bunt the ball around National Golf Links of America (pretty high architectural praise in my book) but might have no business playing Merion.   That doesn't not mean they aren't architectural peers.

Again, my comments were in the context of the debate as to whether NGLA could host the U. S. Open without yielding record low scores.  

To answer your question, I've played NGLA one time.  Perhaps I'm naive but I don't buy the need to play such a course 50 times under all conditions (easy for CB and The Mooch to say since they had/have pretty good access) to grasp every single nuance.  

In my opinion, NLGA is easier than Merion Davisized or not, at least for the 14 handicapper who grasps the game, if not the execution of golf shots.   

Bogey

Michael-

The reason why I asked the questions I did was by no means to be a snob, but rather to be on the same page.

I will disagree and say that it is my feeling that you need to play National many times to understand what's really going on there, and to more importantly experience the golf course.

With more plays and witness to more rounds I think you would change your opinion of the "fear factor". To me there is plenty of "fear factor" out there and mainly due to the amount of slope on the entire golf course (not just the greens).

In order to feel fear of a hole I think you either need to experience a bad hole, or witness a bad hole. I have seen more big numbers on the first hole than any golf course I have played. There's just so much going on.

To me some of the genius at National is that a "high handicapper can bunt" the ball around, and a friend of mine who has played in a Major can make a X on the 330yd opener.

Again, I think with more plays in varied conditions you would change your opinion of the fear factor at National.

Mike Sweeney (not the real Mike Sweeney)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,

You forgot a vital factor................. the WIND

Play, and scoring at NGLA has a lot to do with wind direction and velocity.
In addition, there are "heavy" air winds and "light" air winds.

MSS,

You're so right, with added exposure comes additional discoveries.
There is simply nothing quite like NGLA in all of golf, it's incredibly special and Bill Salinetti has the course humming.
Fast and Firm the way it was meant to be played.

Recently some friends who had never played NGLA played two rounds and commented that they had never seen anything like it in their golfing experiences, and, they've played an abundant amount of golf.

What I continue to love about NGLA is that it requires no hokey amendments, that it's fun to play, today, and as it must have been 50 and 100 years ago

It's the kind of course that you could play from Sunup to Sundown and wish that you had Arctic light.

72 holes in one day is my best.

[JESII]

Pat, and anyone with an informed opinion on NGLA,

While I understand the impact of greatly improved equipment from a distance perspective; does the speed (height of cut) of the fairways, greens and green surrounds make up for the challenge lost through a shorter approach club?

In other words, is par with a short iron today nearly as difficult as par with a mid iron 50 years ago due to the ball moving so much more on the ground?

[Ronald Montesano]

I did forget the wind. I don't recall many gusts nor sustained breezes during the days of the Walker Cup. She was caught in benign times that weekend.

Under the proper conditions, NGLA will be as defenseful as any course on the Open rota. Margins for error are quite small in many instances and would be further restricted should the zephyrs howl.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, and anyone with an informed opinion on NGLA,

While I understand the impact of greatly improved equipment from a distance perspective; does the speed (height of cut) of the fairways, greens and green surrounds make up for the challenge lost through a shorter approach club?

Jim,

I think you have to factor irrigation and it's impact on play into the equation.
While fairway heights maybe lower, in general, I think the fairways were browner and firmer 50 years ago, so there are some trade offs

In other words, is par with a short iron today nearly as difficult as par with a mid iron 50 years ago due to the ball moving so much more on the ground?

Don't forget, the ball goes straighter today.

And, distance is king, with the modern golfer hitting the ball with howitzer like trajectory.

I think par is easier today and that's with the lengthening

[Jim Nugent]

I did forget the wind. I don't recall many gusts nor sustained breezes during the days of the Walker Cup. She was caught in benign times that weekend.

And even then the Walker Cuppers had lots of trouble.  They won many, many matches with over par rounds.

Under the proper conditions, NGLA will be as defenseful as any course on the Open rota. Margins for error are quite small in many instances and would be further restricted should the zephyrs howl.

From time to time, touring pro's must play the course.  Wonder what they shoot?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nugent,

As Bobby Jones said, there's golf and there's tournament golf.

Casual rounds can typically produce lower scores

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Nugent,

As Bobby Jones said, there's golf and there's tournament golf.

Casual rounds can typically produce lower scores

Some figures I compiled for the singles matches at the Walker Cup:

Out of 20 rounds in the singles...

11 were over par
 4 were even
 5 were under par

Low round: 4 under
High round: 6 over

Average score:  1.15 over par

Par or worse won half the matches.  No one who shot par lost.  

In no match did both players shoot under par.  

Maybe you could get an idea of what the pro's would shoot in our fantasy NGLA U.S. Open by comparing their casual rounds there with their casual rounds at Shinnie.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nugent,

I noticed a decided change in play/scoring when the wind came up.

The same held true for SHGC at the Opens

[jkinney]

The more I think about it, the better the dream of a split US Open seems to me. Half the field plays National & half plays Shinny on Thurs. - then vice versa on Fri. The reduced field plays National Sat., then Shinny Sun.......WOW !!!!......(but it won't ever happen, for myriad reasons).

What the Walker Cup showed me is that these great amateurs were, to say the least, puzzled by National's green complexes. National proved itself as a magnificent match play course - about as good as they get, IMO. "Bear", National's ass't. caddy master, put it best when asked why National's caddies dominate the Geary Cup ( the annual four ball & singles match play competition vs. Shinny's caddies). He said, succinctly,
"National's a match play course; Shinnecock's a stroke play course" (or words to that effect).

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