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W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Architect for Ross Master Plan
« on: August 08, 2003, 01:17:39 PM »
What would your top choices be for an architect to lead a Long Range Plan for a Ross Course?
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TEPaul

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2003, 01:58:16 PM »
Ron Prichard
Gil Hanse
Ron Forse

Before the contract is signed with any of those architects though, the very best thing to do at any Ross course is to get the membership (all of them) together in one room for about 15 minutes and then get Brad Klein to come in there and tell them in his inimitable way what a bunch of rich idiots they are for having done to the course what they did to it before deciding to create a good master plan, fix it and put the course back the way it's supposed to be!
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TEPaul

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2003, 02:12:18 PM »
Of course when all the rankling, arguing and differences of opinon begins to show its ugly head as it inevitably does without fail you should get the membership together (all of them), bring me in, and in my extremely calm and logical and politic way I'd explain to them all that the club recognizes that there are potentially about 500 different opinions, and the club completely respects and appreciates all 500 of those different opinons of what to do about anything and everything on every hole but in fact it's only possible to do one thing in a really good restoration master plan so to please get together amongst themselves and create a consensus on what those app 50,000 individual desisions on anything and everything should be.

Then tell them to place all those decisions in envelopes and see if they're the same decisions as the right decisions in all the other envelopes that I have in my hands that've already been made before they were all so nice to come and discuss this whole master plan subject!
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TEPaul

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2003, 02:18:07 PM »
I forgot to add that in the unlikely event that one of their 50,000 decisions happens to be the same decision as the right one you absolutely must tell them all that they all appear to be natural born architects and should be on the green committee and that you'll get back to them on that sometime in the future.
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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2003, 02:33:33 PM »
TEPaul
I noticed that Brian Silva's name wasn't on your list.  I thought he was considered to be one of the foremost Ross "restorers" in the business.  Did you leave him off for a reason?  (I've got no dog in this hunt, but am just curious.)  Silva is currently redoing Hope Valley CC in Durham, NC, and I'm extremely curious to see how it comes out when it reopens in Oct. (or thereabouts)

Having just had the good fortune to play at Wilmington Municipal in NC, I would heartily endorse Ron Prichard's work.
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"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Bye

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2003, 02:41:52 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on August 08, 2003, 01:58:16 PM
Ron Prichard
Gil Hanse
Ron Forse


Gee, what a surprise!
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TEPaul

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2003, 02:48:03 PM »
A.G.

No, I didn't leave Brian Silva out for any particular reason so I'll add his name to my list. I thought he did a great job on Gulf Stream although as a restoration it may have been a bit interpretive--but I don't have that much idea what the club asked Brian to do exactly. The course sure does play better and more interesting than it used to though, and looking at an old aerial that I never realized existed what he did was restorative to a large degree.

Of all on that list, though it seems to me from my experience that Ron Prichard tends to be the most interested in really accurate research and restoration and really goes out of his way to try to convince the Ross club to accept that.

But in reality no architect is just going to try to override what a membership is asking him to do--and that's why any Ross course needs to bring in Brad Klein first to tell ALL the members that the first thing he ever learned about architecture way back when is that rich people can be and generally are real idiots too!
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rpurd

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2003, 02:52:24 PM »
Please stay away from Mr Prichard......as mentioned before he has really done some bad work at some places in the northeast.  

I am sure this post will get deleted as Mr Paul has pull with the administration........
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Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2003, 03:05:04 PM »
TEPaul,

Can I get you in front of my Members?  What is your hourly rate?  Can I get a discount if you and Brad are on the same ticket?  

If the membership would just pay the bills and stay out of things we could give them such a great course. They don't look over the Chef's shoulder while he cooks their meal.

SBR
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TEPaul

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2003, 03:15:35 PM »
Jeeeesus Cheyrisst, it's you again rpurd on that ridiculous subject which started a complete brouhaha on here months ago inspiring you to insult everyone in sight on here. Just go ahead then, once and for all and supply some info of what the hell you're talking about in architectural detail. I don't exactly call overhearing some people eating lunch at the next table discussing Prichard's ruination of Northeast bunkers architectural detail either.

You really are a miserable little anonymite you know, not to mention the fact that you appear to be a transparent social climber and braggart of the highest order. And I suggest you call up Seminole yourself and ask them if a tornado touched down on their golf course. Here's their number--626-1331.
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TEPaul

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2003, 03:19:22 PM »
"TEPaul,
Can I get you in front of my Members?  What is your hourly rate?  Can I get a discount if you and Brad are on the same ticket?  

SBR:

Of course you can get me in front of your members! My hourly rate is very reasonable--I'm free.

Brad Klein, on the other hand, is awful cheap but he isn't free.

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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2003, 05:14:31 PM »
I'm not familiar with other recent Ross restorations or renovations, but I was very excited about the great work Ron Forse did at Mobile CC not long ago.
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Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2003, 06:18:48 PM »
You must consider Kris Spence of Greensboro, N.C. for a Ross restoration. I also like Pritchard's work, but there is a chance he can be over-extended. Kris just finished Mimosa and Grove Park.  I have worked with Kris on one project, and have spent hours with him talking the talk. Grab him now or soon he may be too busy as well.

This is a funny story that depicts his attitude toward a Ross restoration. When viewing the depth of his restored bunkers at one project, someone said, "God Kris, the membership must be cursing you about the deep bunkers here?  Kris responded, "those are not my bunkers; they are Donald Ross'. These bunkers were built by him." Unlike many architects, he would no more put his signature on one of Mr. Ross' holes.

Anyway, I cannot endorse him enough! Here is a link to a recent article!

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/sports/columnists/ron_green_jr/6112281.htm
« Last Edit: August 09, 2003, 09:15:58 PM by Dunlop_White »
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Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2003, 06:25:44 PM »
Brad Klein will certainly give a wondeful presentation to gain support and consensus with the membership. He is simply the best at persuading a room full of egos to revive and recapture their long, lost architectural heritage.

Incidently, I really liked Tom Doak's work at Holston Hills, while I was not too impressed with Weeds interpretation of Ross at Myers Park.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2003, 06:32:19 PM »
There are lots of architects who could do a master plan for a Ross course.  My advice would be not to make too much of those who claim to know Ross inside out or who have done ten Ross courses previously ... what you want is someone who will look at what you've got and what you've lost, not give you the boilerplate version.

Unfortunately, a lot of guys are selling themselves as Ross experts simply because there are more Ross courses to restore than anyone else's.

That's not to pick on anyone mentioned above ... to the best of my knowledge all of them have done some very good work, and we've only followed one of them who did something that didn't work.  Just ask to see ALL their references, and not just a couple where the green chairman loves them.

P.S.  We really didn't have to do much at Holston Hills, because they hadn't screwed it up.
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2003, 07:06:33 PM »
   te paul....not me mind you ,but bee you ben hitting that flask a bit earlier today ? earlier on ?
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2003, 07:33:29 PM »
Bye:

If you were Cos what would you be looking for as an answer--a legitimate group of names or some kind of surprise? Don't answer that because you already have.
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TEPaul

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2003, 07:42:35 PM »
PaulC:

I don't blame you for asking about that but the answer is no. It's just that I'm on here so much sometimes that I can go sort of nuts on my posts.

Dunlop:

Glad to see the name Kris Spence from you. I'd obviously list Doak and Coore & Crenshaw too for master plans and restorations of Ross courses--I just didn't know TomD did one and I'm quite sure Coore and Crenshaw wouldn't be looking to do one--not that they couldn't do a great job if they wanted to do one.
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Stephen Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2003, 07:08:50 AM »
Gentlemen:

It is nice to see Kris Spence's name mentioned again.  I served as an Assistant Golf Professional @ the Greensboro CC, where Kris did a renovation/restoration of the 1909 (Ross) Irving Park Course.  He turned me on to this web site, and is responsible for my addiction.  I know he once frequented this site, and it would be nice to here about him some more.  If Joel Zuckerman can be a feature interview of the month :-X, what about Spence.  His work has apparently been well received.

Stepehn Brown
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Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2003, 08:17:00 AM »
Very informative post indeed as my club is in the mist of a master plan proposal.
Any warnings out there of architects to avoid because of past mishaps?
I've seen the work done by Pritchard at Skokie, Jacobsen at Northbrook and Esler at Ravisloe. I'd give them all very high marks.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2003, 09:37:36 AM »
We have consulted at Holston Hills, White Bear Y.C., Essex County (Mass.), Detroit Golf Club, Essex G & CC (Windsor), and a couple of other Ross courses.

But we're really busy right now, so we're not looking for another.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Architect for Ross Master Plan
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2003, 11:07:18 AM »
rpurd,

Previoulsy, you had attributed work to Prichard that turned out to be work by another architect.

Previously, I had asked you some specific questions which you never answered.

At what courses did Ron Prichard's work fail to fulfill the mandate of the membership ?

TEPaul,

Based on my observations, I liked your first list, without any additions.

But, the critical factor is the direction given to the architect, and the amount of imput, control and creative freedom he exercises.   Sometimes restorations end up with the architects finger prints strewn throughout the golf course.

Make sure that a restoration "true" to the original architects design intent is the mission, and that the integrity of the design of the original architect is preserved.

If you get the architect to agree to the above, I don't think you will have a problem.  Just remember, many's the slip twixt the cup and the lip.
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