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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« on: September 05, 2013, 05:39:56 PM »
Individually, not as a set. 

I fully expect Ed Oden and Mark Saltzman to dominate this thread but I'll offer up a few:

13 at Crystal Downs (I happen to think this hole is very good and among my favorite greens at CD
17 at Crystal Downs (I don't think so but many seem to like it)
3 at Old Town
7 at Old Town
12 at Old Town
14 at Old Town
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2013, 05:52:29 PM »
Silly green speeds aside, I'd have to think the 5th at CD would at least be in the discussion.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 05:53:05 PM »
Silly green speeds aside, I'd have to think the 5th at CD would at least be in the discussion.

Why?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 06:01:13 PM »
Silly green speeds aside, I'd have to think the 5th at CD would at least be in the discussion.

I think it is pretty well decided that the front 9, perhaps with the exception of #9 is all Dr. Mac.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 06:05:30 PM »
Silly green speeds aside, I'd have to think the 5th at CD would at least be in the discussion.

I think it is pretty well decided that the front 9, perhaps with the exception of #9 is all Dr. Mac.

I don't know much about the history at CD, but #4 seems a lot like a Maxwell hole.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 06:18:12 PM »
I would tend to agree with you but the only Maxwell I've seen besides CD is Old Town so, I'll defer to you and Ed as you two have seen a bunch of Maxwell.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2013, 09:50:59 PM »
I'll start with a sleeper...

The 4th hole at 9-hole Bristow Golf Course in Bristow, OK.

A 350-yard par-4 that plays along the boundary on the left, and as is relatively common for Maxwell holes, demands a blind tee shot over a rise with little indication of ideal line.

Once over the rise, the hole bends to the left, while the fairway tilts hard to the right.  Only a brave tee shot along the boundary line will leave the preferred approach.

The approach is played to a green that is angled from front-left to back-right.  The ability to play to the length of the green is particularly important as the green sits atop a plateau that drops off severely beyond the green.

I have pictures if there is interest.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2013, 09:56:44 PM »
While I expect a handful of Maxwell's best holes were once found at Dornick Hills, it would require a combination of imagination and knowledge of history to know which holes were great.

Perhaps an argument could be made for the 12th or 13th holes, both of which use similar strategies as the 4th at Bristow, the no-brainer hole to include is the 16th with its 30 foot (!) high rock wall short of the green.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2013, 10:20:11 PM »
I'll start with a sleeper...

The 4th hole at 9-hole Bristow Golf Course in Bristow, OK.

A 350-yard par-4 that plays along the boundary on the left, and as is relatively common for Maxwell holes, demands a blind tee shot over a rise with little indication of ideal line.

Once over the rise, the hole bends to the left, while the fairway tilts hard to the right.  Only a brave tee shot along the boundary line will leave the preferred approach.

The approach is played to a green that is angled from front-left to back-right.  The ability to play to the length of the green is particularly important as the green sits atop a plateau that drops off severely beyond the green.

I have pictures if there is interest.

Pictures, please!
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2013, 10:24:57 PM »
Surely something from Dornick Hills is involved here...

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2013, 11:52:24 PM »
Jason, the only thing I dominate these days is the carpool line.

You could do a lot worse than giving the original 9 holes at Prairie Dunes as your answer.  But what fun would that be?  So I'll try and take a more balanced approach.  First, a few points/disclaimers.  I don't know that I (or anyone else for that matter) can say these are definitively Maxwell's best.  But they are all great holes in my opinion and personal favorites.  I tried to spread the wealth among courses and decided to limit myself to no more than 2 par 3s and par 5s.  I have assumed the conventional wisdom that the front nine at Crystal is more MacKenzie and the back nine more Maxwell although I haven't seen anything definitive on the subject.  In any event, I've limited myself to the back nine for purposes of this response.  If the front nine at CD is in play, then my answers would likely change.  Finally, by no means have I played all of Maxwell's courses, so I'm sure there are some great holes that I haven't seen.

Par 3s:
Prairie Dunes #2 - In my opinion, all great short holes should bring both birdie and double into play.  Those were my scores on my two rounds at PD.  
OKCG&CC #11 - I love this hole with the creek weaving around the green.  If only the dramatic blowout bunker behind the green could be reinstated.
(Honorable Mention: Crystal Downs #14; Old Town #6)

Par 4s:
Prairie Dunes #8 - Perhaps the best Maxwell hole I've played.  It has everything.  Terrific land movement.  Strategy on all shots,  A fantastic green complex, wind plays a big role.
Crystal Downs #13 - I agree with Jason that this is a fantastic hole.  You have to challenge the creek on the right side to get the best angle of approach to an incredibly severe green.
ANGC #10 - OK, so Maxwell didn't originally design the hole and the MacKenzie bunker remains an artistic marvel.  But is there any doubt that Maxwell's changes made #10 into one of the great holes in golf?  Plus I think at least one hole that Maxwell redesigned needs to be included on the list since that was such a large part of his work and his legacy.
Twin Hills #3 - A terrific example of how Maxwell used natural land movement to create interest on a hole.  This one is virtually straight and dramatically uphill from tee to green.  But the heaving terrain makes it a roller coaster ride.
Oakwood #10 - I wanted to include at least one hole from a course that very few people have heard of since, like his restoration work, small town courses in the middle of nowhere comprised such a big part of Maxwell's portfolio.
Southern Hills #18 - A ball busting finishing hole on a major championship course.  Equal parts gorgeous and intimidating.
(Honorable Mention:  Old Town #5; Crystal Downs #17)

Par 5s:
Old Town #17 - Great land movement.  A true three shotter where a mistake on any shot can lead to a big number and ending with a double green.  
(Honorable Mention: Dornick Hills #16; Prairie Dunes #17)


Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2013, 11:58:10 PM »
While I expect a handful of Maxwell's best holes were once found at Dornick Hills, it would require a combination of imagination and knowledge of history to know which holes were great.

Mark, I don't think Dornick's history is complicated.  The greens are not original but the routing except for 1 and 2 is largely in tact as far as I know.  

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2013, 04:37:47 AM »
Any chance of seeing some photos or plans or maybe some links to other GCA threads where more details can be found?
All the best.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2013, 05:58:08 AM »
Picking out 9 individual holes from different courses does not really show how good a GCA somebody is. Many people do not appreciate how the holes leading up to a great hole can help to set the scene and without them the great hole is diminished.  The real reflection of GCA quality is in the combination of routing, strategy and flow of a course.

Jon

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2013, 07:56:31 AM »
Ed,

I'm surprised you didnt include Old Town #'s 7, 12 or 14 in your list of possible par 4s.  Why is that?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2013, 03:39:24 PM »
Jason, the honest answer is I messed up in regard to Old Town #12.  It may be the best hole on the course and I actually had it in my top 9 but pulled it out in an effort to spread my list over more courses.  I meant to move it to the honorable mention category but forgot.  Nothing against 7 or 14, but 12, 5 and 13 (in that order) have always been my favorite par 4s at Old Town.  

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell's best 9 holes?
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2013, 06:04:07 PM »
If I picked four holes from Old Town they would be
5 - par 4
6 - par 3
12 - par 4
17 - par 5.

While the pedigree is not quite sorted, I think UofM is mainly Maxwell, so with that in mind I would throw out
3 - par 5
6 - par 4
12 - par 3
14 - par 3

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