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cary lichtenstein

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Re: The "where would you rather play" argument
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2013, 01:27:03 AM »
This is a great thread. I've often talked about over rated courses or courses that are just too darn penal, but your thread seeks out the positive instead of the negative.

Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Sean_A

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Re: The "where would you rather play" argument
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2013, 05:41:03 AM »
Sean and RJ, I'll bite.

Why can't the best player be identified at a course where a poor golfer can still enjoy the day?
Augusta National or even NGLA being the poster child
A well designed course could challenge precision via placement and opening of angles, as opposed to hit it here or you lose the ball.

If the course is only fun or playable for 2% or so of the low single digit golf population , there's no way for me to say that's good architecture.

Ironic though, Sean and I like the same courses, he just has the ability to rate "unfun" courses without prejudice ;D
There are of course more criteria than "more funner", but the word fun is subjective anyway and means different things to different people.
Plenty of hackers thought the torture of the old TPC was fun.

By the way, I'm watching VN right now.
Hopefully it's the distortion of TV lenses, but it looks really hard, and I can see why the "don't make me go back out there" joke was made.

Jeff

Indeed, why can't the best player be identified on a course nearly everybody can get round?  I would say TOC is probably as close was we get to this ideal and yet it still comes up a bit short.  That though is as much do to with tech as the design. 

I just played Trump International and it came in 4th out of the five courses we played.  The reason I placed it personally so low is the course is relentless in demands.  In other words, its too tough for me.  I would also say it may be a little one dimensional for my tastes.  That may change in the future after the fairways become keen, but now, its too hard.  That said, I think Trump International is a great course. Because my game isn't good enough to cope doesn't mean the architecture isn't great.  Plus, there are fun shots out there, but I prefer a more mellow challenge highlighted by fun shots of which some very difficult ones may be included. 

I spose the ultimate course in these sorts of debates is Pine Valley.  I am told it is tough as two-headed nails, but awesome. 

The main reason our tastes seem to collide when we rate courses is I don't much see the point of listing the best.  We all (or nearly - tee hee) know which are the best courses - everybody's list looks the same - an absolutely pointless exercise - except for you of course. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ted Sturges

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Re: The "where would you rather play" argument
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2013, 11:32:11 AM »
Some great posts and feedback here.  I enjoyed reading through all of it.

Some questiosns were asked of me, so I will respond:

1.  To Solow-   Good point on expounding upon "why would I rather play here vs. there".  I think over the years I have brought the thesis of my reply to this question down to... I would rather play a course that allows me to hit driver to generous fairways more often than not (preference for width), and then I like a course where the hole becomes more challenging from that point (getting it in play is not "in play or death" and then the hole becomes more challenging from the landing area to the hole).  That is the way it is at NGLA, Dornoch, Yeamans Hall (to name 3).  I would tell an architect to build more holes/courses like that.  Searching for golf balls is a total buzz kill.  Navigating the issues around challenging green complexes is like solving a puzzle...and that is fun for me.  Build more golf holes like that.

2.  To Pete B.-  I totally agree with your point about Winged Foot's 2 courses.  I would also add the 2 at Baltusrol.  I much prefer the Upper there vs. the Lower.  It has more interesting greens (as a set), and is "more fun" (to me) than the more challenging Lower course.  I've always thought it was the better course of the 2, but people are afraid to rate it as such because the Lower is the "championship" course.

3.  To Bill Brightly (and Brent Hutto)-  I have played Royal County Down and Cypress Point.  I didn't include Cypress on my list simply because I thought it would sound too ostentatious.  It is extremely fun to play there for sure.  I played Royal County Down in a 20-25 mph wind.  I played there with Ran and as we were making our way down the hill to the landing area on 9 (literally holding onto each other a couple of times to avoid being blown over and falling down the hill), I remarked to Ran "Holy sh%*...this is full contact golf".  I played very well that day for me (6 handicap) and I think I made 3 pars (and a bunch of very hard earned bogeys).  Perhaps it was the weather we got that day, but as much as I loved the architecture at RCD, I didn't think it was a ton of "fun" (that day) and would not have thought to include it on the list of fun places to play that I posted.

4.  To Jud and Jeff-  I would rank FL Ross ahead of VN.  I didn't make that clear in my above post, and I'm sorry about that.  I have several close friends who are members at VN.  Last year, while I was visiting one of them, we went out to VN for lunch, hit balls, and I told him I just didn't think I was playing well enough to go out there.  We drove down the road to Doak's Quail Crossing and we had a very fun day.  I don't play as much as I used to, and I just hate to suffer through a round I know I won't enjoy. 

TS

Rich Goodale

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Re: The "where would you rather play" argument
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2013, 11:53:19 AM »
Great thread, Ted, but it depends...

On a day to day basis I'd rather play NGLA, but in competition I'd rather play Shinnecock Hills.

On a holiday with my family I'd rather play the Struie course at Dornoch than the Championship one, but if there were a medal on the day I'd sneak off to the top course.

If I had the money (and the juice) to play either Cypress or Pebble daily I'd play the former most days, but play the latter when I wanted to see how good or bad my game might be on the day.

If offered I'd take up a chance to play Birkdale with any of my GCA pals but, if they gave me the choice I'd play Hesketh.


Different stokes for different folks and on different days and in diffeent circumstances......

Hope all is well

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

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