[Mark_Fine]

Who knows the history behind marking and picking up your ball on the green?  Also, who introduced the concept of a green collar to golf architecture?  

[Dennis_Harwood]

Mark-- I don't have all the historical books with me, so I can't give you dates, but generally the right to mark, lift and clean on the putting green was based on two principles--

1- the Styme rule, which although in place in match play until WWII, was never in place during stroke play events--Therefore if a ball interfered with a fellow competitors ball on the putting green the player was required to lift his ball--The Rule then was that any ball lifted could be cleaned--

2- When courses changed from hard and fast to soft and watered the ball would pick up mud which did make it difficult to putt-- In stroke play events the "custom" was that although the player did not have the right to lift his own ball, fellow competitors would request all other balls be marked and lifted so everyone could clean their ball--

3- To have constant rules for match and stroke play (and even under the styme rule if the balls lay within 6 inches the closest ball could be marked, lifted and cleaned), the rulemakers abolished the styme rule (there were other reasons for abolishing the styme) and any ball on the putting green could be marked and lifted-- That concept was in place for all competitions after WWII.

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Dennis.  I'll have to do some research myself to find the dates that started happening.  Do you know about the concept of the collar around the green?  

[Yancey_Beamer]

Mark,
The Rules of the Green,Kenneth G. Chapman,Triumph Books, Chicago,1997.
pgs,49,151-153,159.(cleaning)
Collar? I'd be interested in the answer to that question.No information in their chapter,"The putting Green and the Flagstick" pgs,120-133.

[Yancey_Beamer]

Lifting,49,52,105,129,144-150,185
This should cover it.
Now what about that collar?

[Neil Regan]

Mark,
  Check out this site
http://www.ruleshistory.com/

  It has a great collection of the Rules of Golf throughout history. Here is a sample:

"
Lifting and Dropping
Through the green was first defined in 1899, as being all parts of the course except hazards and the putting green. The teeing ground was added to the definition in 1933.

Apart from taking a ball out of a hazard, lifting was initially allowed only for balls touching, then within six inches of each other from 1775.
The first 'procedure' for dropping a ball came in 1754: throwing it behind a water hazard 'six yards at least'. Apart from 1754 and HCEG 1809, all codes up to 1888 allowed a ball to be teed behind if it was in water, but the ball was to be dropped in other instances.

R &A 1858 stipulated a drop on a line from the hole behind the hazard, establishing the principle used ever since.

R&A 1891 in stroke play allowed a ball to be teed for lost ball and a ball 'lifted out of any difficulty', (in match play both these occurrences were loss of hole).

The first mention of placing, rather than dropping, a ball on the putting green came in 1902.
"

Neil

[Neil Regan]

Here is another sample, an early Decision:

"
There is an early decision which shows how the authorities considered the subject of cleaning, however:


95: Queen's Club, Maidenhead.
Some of the greens are under repair and covered with charcoal and sand. A ball lying on such ground may, by local rule, be lifted and placed not nearer the hole. May a ball lifted under the local rule be cleaned before being placed, in order to remove sand and charcoal? There is no local rule which allows a player to wipe a ball.
Answer: Certainly not.
"

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,
I asked a similar question about the fringe, or collar, here a long time ago.
Rand Jerris, historian? at the USGA, looked into the when and why and could not find anything truly definitive, even in the extensive library he has at his disposal.
The best reason for why they appeared was as a transition area for power mowers.  

[A_Clay_Man]

In retrospect, this is probably the one rule violated the most. Why is it people (i assume mostly american's who golf) feel so violated when the golf gods throws some adversity their way? Mostly in the form of a bad lie in a divot on soggy turf. Winter rules HA.

Facing and overcoming the adversity is probably what American's (or any nationality who's only learning of the game  cost'em 50-100 an hour) "don't get" the most.

[tonyt]

I agree with the Claymeister,

When you see the PGA Tour deciding against "Playin' it down", I just laugh my head off. Here in Australia, even in a social game among friends, unless the ball is sitting in a cow cake or covered in roo poo, you simply find it and hit it. We have courses that are bogged in mud for three months per year, where you have to tip toe whilst holding your pants above the water level, and I still can't remember when it was in my distant youth that I last had a preferred lie.

The other thread about Americans "not getting it' may be a little harsh, but I agree with the overall tone here that any adversity that may constitute a little bad luck or poor conditions seems to cause more of an uproar in the US.

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks for the comments guys.  I will look into some of those sites.  As you say Jim, I can't seem to find anything either about collars and how/when they were introduced in golf architecture.  

[stevencollins]

I don't have any answers to this post, but a few observations that I have always thought about in a related fashion.

First, I've seen old film of rounds where when a ball was in front of another players ball, they chipped it over the other ball.  Was this trick shots in exhibitions, or real play?

Second, watching the Sam Snead show on TGC, I've noticed that the players don't mark their balls on the green unless they are in the way.  I guess that was the custom?

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:  I'm not sure exactly when collars originated.

I DO remember reading, many years ago, an old book whose writer marveled at how they mowed the greens at Oakmont in the old days.  When they got to the edge of the closely mown area, the groundsmen were taught to lift their mowers slowly and precisely to give the grass something of a beveled cut!

If you think about it, though, it's impossible to walk-mow a green with high rough immediately adjacent:  lifting up the mower at the edge has to leave some sort of mark.  Therefore, I believe collars have been around as long as rough next to the green.

Steven:  that was real play!!  If you read shot-by-shot accounts of U.S. Amateur matches in the 1920's or before, you'll find that the stymie came into play an average of a couple times a round.  You'd only try chipping over your opponent's ball if you were very close to it, of course; if the balls were further apart you could try to putt around him.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()