Unfair holes - The 5th at Bandon Dunes ?

[Norbert P]

A bunker or dune, which could provide a one-half, one or two stroke penalty would seem to be a better hazard,  while still creating decisions from the tee.

 I read between the lines of your post that some preconceived standard should prevail in the manipulation of nature to appease golfers whims.  I say, let nature defend itself by what was there prior to the golf design manifesto.

 I also read in your actual words that a 1/2 shot penalty is a more appropriate hazard... but in the case of the 5th at Bandon Dunes, it is not.  

This is why...  A GOOD (safe) drive right fairway allows the next decision of pitching to the mouth of the green entrance alleyway or to go for it in 2 (regulation).  A GREAT drive that goes left of or clears the islands of doom should be frought with danger worse than sand, as that courageous attack, if the ball lands in bunker sand, would still allow the same shot of pitching to the entrance of the alleyway.  So, going for it would have no risk greater than just bailing right.  
 
So,  the clumps of glory in the fatty fairway, as they exist now, are appropriately dastardly and fair.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Slag,

We disagree.

I contend that if you played that course every day,
you'd be in my camp in less than a month, especially if the hole played into the wind.

[Norbert P]

  Repeated misfortune in golf is already my yoke.  I'm accustomed to disaster and am getting quite comfortable in my shackles of maladroitness.  The earth shall outlast us all and the standard of par is only a whim.  Until tens of thousands of golfers have scraped, chunked and divoted the mons to sans, they are righteous as they are.

[Doug Wright]

Is the 5th hole at Bandon Dunes unfair....

Patrick,

The above is from your opening post on this thread. See also the thread heading itself.

Sorry, Patrick, by my training I unfortunately can be as literal as you...

All The Best,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Wright,

You need a refresher course in reading comprehension.

I NEVER said that the 5th hole at Bandon was unfair,
I asked the question, IS the 5th hole at Bandon unfair ?

There is a distinct and material difference.

Tell me that you understand the literal meaning of the above.

[Paul_Turner]

I thought the fairway to the left of the mounds was too tight to risk the shot, when playing seriously.  But there's tons of room right (who thinks there isn't?) and it's a reasonable gamble to just aim at the mounds.  No way that every shot in the mounds is lost.

[Norbert P]

Here it is.

I'm Jonesin' for a loop.  Just imagine if the crags weren't there and some standard of bunker was.  It just wouldn't be the unique hole that it is.  It would still be a great hole but as it is, she's a "superstar!" *  

(*Think Catholic school girl, Mary Katherine Gallagher of Saturday NIght Live)

[ed_getka]

Doug,
 Good point regarding #3 tee shot. Now that I can see being unfair thinking back on the rounds I have played there into the wind off that tee.

I agree with Paul that there is plenty of room to the right, then you can lay up short of the neck of fairway leading into the green, a pitch and a putt for par into a relatively flat green is not beyond possibility. Besides, with my game I'm not going to par that hole too many times anyway.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I know that my vision isn't good, but looking at the above pictures, I don't see the wide open width that some are alluding to.

My concern was the drive into a 3-4 club wind, and I just don't see all that room others claim exists.

In measuring the distance as it appears in the yardage book, there is less then 20 yards to the right of the big gunk to the gorse on the right.

Perhaps others are much more accurate off the tee than I am.

[Doug Wright]

Patrick Mucci,

Were you REALLY asking a question or making a statement? Seems like you've been making a statement about the unfairness of the hole or this "element" since the opening post.

Anyway, I'm comfortable with my level of reading comprehension.

You think this "element" is unfair; I and others don't.

It's your opinion, you could be wrong.
It's my opinion, I could be wrong.

Such is life on GolfClubAtlas.com.

All The Best,

 
 

[DMoriarty]

Is the hole below unfair?  (Assume same location, conditions, general dimensions of current BD 5.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

I don't mind the dunes or grass islands in the middle of the fairway, I object to dense underbrush that leads to lost ball and unplayable lies on a good and already challenging golf hole that doesn't need that type of gimmick to help it out.

Doug Wright,

I also put a (?) at the end of the subject title.

But, you're right, we do disagree.
I think the gunk right in the middle of the fairway, which can and does result in lost balls and unplayable lies is an unfair element on an otherwise excellent, demanding hole, which plays into a substantial, prevailing wind.

Why taint an excellent hole with something so unnecessary ?

[DMoriarty]

I don't mind the dunes or grass islands in the middle of the fairway, I object to dense underbrush that leads to lost ball and unplayable lies on a good and already challenging golf hole that doesn't need that type of gimmick to help it out.

So . . . is anything about the hole pictured two posts above unfair?

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

My vision isn't very good so I'm not sure of what you're illustrationg, but, it appears that you removed the gunk in the middle of the fairway.  I would prefer to see a bunker or dune in its place.

[DMoriarty]

My vision isn't very good so I'm not sure of what you're illustrationg, but, it appears that you removed the gunk in the middle of the fairway.  I would prefer to see a bunker or dune in its place.

Patrick, the middle gunk is still there.  I got rid of the left fairway.  I also greened in the portion of the right fairway which was out of view-- in the shadow.  

I think the hole would play perfectly reasonably if changed in this manner.  A long drive would demand accuracy, but there is plenty of room shorter and right to play safe.  Missing in the gunk would likely lead to a lost ball.  Here are the two pictures for comparison.  The side aerial illustration is also changed.

                 Original:

Without left fairway:

I think the latter would be a fair hole.  I don't understand how adding an additional option, even if narrow, can make the hole unfair.  What am I missing?