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Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
A virgin in Phoenix
« on: April 09, 2013, 06:36:02 PM »
Spurred on by the recent rapturous reviews of some Phoenix golf by GMBP, I renewed over Easter my long dormant efforts to experience some "desert golf". And how right he was!

I should first say that after the brutal winter in Britain, any escape to sunshine and big blue skies was going to make me well disposed. And a week of 85-90 degrees + blue sky was very agreeable. But so was the golf. I played five rounds - - two at We Ko Pa Saguaro, one at Talking Stick North, one at Desert Forest and one at Troon North/Monument.

The low point was the Monument course. While the scenery was pretty memorable, with all these dramatic boulders, the course was not. Indeed, i can really only remember one hole with a particular sense of pleasure, and that was the short two shooter - maybe around 15 - which felt like a very good hole, not least because of the dramatic views and the fine, slightly hidden green. it was hard, though,  to avoid the sense of claustrophobia from the housing. I quite enjoyed my round, but it did little for the soul.

By contrast, the other courses all put a big smile on my face. Desert Forest - thank you Dave - was a delightful course and club. The course is about to undergo a significant restoration, so it will be interesting to see how that pans out. But unlike Troon North, the course felt much less claustrophobic. And for those who label the course "narrow", I can only say that that is a relative term. I would not unprompted though to say it was narrow. And it is certainly not narrow compared to a course - maybe apples and oranges  comparison - like Huntercombe. I think the feature i most liked about the course was the movement in the fairways which had a scale and a tempo which was very agreeable. My only criticism would be that the course maybe felt a bit over-grassed - maybe not as resonant of the desert as it should be? But i think that is something that will be dealt with in part via the restoration.

I loved both the Coore and Crenshaw courses. TSN is obviously lower key on its flat terrain - but i never really felt that i was playing an especially flat course like you might feel at times on, say, Hoylake. And i did like the strategy of some of the standout holes with the OB on the left - the 2nd  and the other at the NE ? corner of the property (the c 370 yard par 4).

As for Saguaro, well it did not disappoint. Excellent variety of holes, great routing, some wonderful greens - sinuous in the way they blended into the landscape - and fantastic backdrop. I feel sorry for the many golfers who have not had the pleasure of sampling a course of this type of design - generous off the tee, though harder than it looks, with wonderful variety and challenge in the greens.

 A few thoughts:

- there must be very few courses with a tougher start/finish combination than this course - especially the 18th which is a brute to close on.
- some great short two-shotters, especially 2, but also 7,10 and 16.
- some great three-shotters, especially four and fourteen.
- great us use of Cape-style tee shots eg 2, 8, 13
- stand-out holes for me were six - love the way the green looks so challenging despite the lack of bunkers - and fifteen, the long redan-style par three. I also thought 17 was an excellent green - but these are just some favourites from a course which felt very good throughout.

Rob Rigg tells me that there are many bad course in Phoenix and i will happily defer to his wisdom, but I am already looking forward to playing most of these course again. In passing - any fears about slow golf were misplaced. Every round i played, over the Easter weekend and days after, was an absolute pleasure.

If i find time I will post a few pictures, but thought i would meanwhile dash off a few impressions.

Philip

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 08:42:03 PM »
Philip, you hit some of the PHX highlights, all good stuff although I would rather play Golf Club of Scottsdale than Troon North. 

I think the hole you were thinking of at Talking Stick North is #12.   There is a wash straight ahead, a rather tiny driving area to the left near the boundary fence, and the Elysian Fields to the right.  After a bail out, you are suddenly faced with a short iron to a narrow, firm green with OB directly behind!  My last play there I saw a well struck 8-iron take one bounce near the flagstick and hop straight out of bounds.   The little island of fairway left is dangerous, and the lies in the wash are unpredictable.    It's a great short par 4. 

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 11:32:22 PM »
Philip - That was a thoroughly enjoyable round with you and the Mrs!

I think the only must play public you did not get to was Southern Dunes.

Papago is also a fun course for the value and Talking Stick South has some good holes as well, but definitely a step behind the north.

DF will be in primo updated condition next time you make it out to the desert!


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2013, 07:48:12 AM »
Glad you enjoyed it.  I look forward to the pictures.  Any off course highlights?

Dave Givnish

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 12:34:58 AM »
Philip

It was a pleasure to get out with you and Emiko. Hopefully you can get back to see DF after the changes. I agree with Bill on GCS vs. Troon North, and would add Estancia and Southern Dunes to your list for next trip.

Watch out for Rob.  He'll talk you into coming in the middle of the summer for long walks in a dry heat.   :)

Dave

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 08:36:10 AM »
Philip - That was a thoroughly enjoyable round with you and the Mrs!

I think the only must play public you did not get to was Southern Dunes.

Papago is also a fun course for the value and Talking Stick South has some good holes as well, but definitely a step behind the north.

DF will be in primo updated condition next time you make it out to the desert!



Rob (and others):

Does Vista Verde deserve to be in this conversation?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2013, 04:13:12 PM »
Bill, that was indeed the hole i was remembering - i recall wondering at exactly the scenario you describe, with a medal card in hand! I am afraid to say that my own efforts to play that hole fell well short of the challenges posed by the strategy!

I am sure i will return so i will be able to pick up some of those other suggestions. Jason i remember you recommending Southern Dunes and I did indeed book there but i was overbooked so ended up cancelling. Next time!

As for off course highlights. Well the Sanctuary at Camelback is a fabulous hotel by any standards and that certainly added to the pleasures and probably stopped us from being too adventurous. We went to Sedona and that strange hillside town nearby ?? which was fun for a few hours. The views at Sedona were definitely worth seeing but we did not dwell as the main tourist area was a bit overwhelming. Some good restaurants, including the hotel and FnB which did the incredible in making cauliflower a delicious dish! What did i miss?!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2013, 07:19:03 PM »
The Frank Lloyd Wright Museum out by Talking Stick was a don't miss for me. 

The old Pink Pony steakhouse in Old Town Scottsdale was a must for a San Francisco Giants fan as the former hangout of the team during spring training, but it was a bit seedy last time there. 

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 10:58:53 PM »
Philip - That was a thoroughly enjoyable round with you and the Mrs!

I think the only must play public you did not get to was Southern Dunes.

Papago is also a fun course for the value and Talking Stick South has some good holes as well, but definitely a step behind the north.

DF will be in primo updated condition next time you make it out to the desert!




Rob (and others):

Does Vista Verde deserve to be in this conversation?

Sven

Sven,

Yes...I think VV is solidly in the area top 5 public.

Ahead of everything but Saguaro and Southern Dunes.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2013, 11:56:23 AM »
Southern Dunes ahead of VV ???

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2013, 08:30:04 PM »
Forget the 90 Acres and a Mule golf and go directly to Lo Lo's Chicken & Waffles.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2013, 09:28:40 PM »
Southern Dunes ahead of VV ???

I didn't say that...I like them both the same.  ;)

I think the bunkering at SD is terrific and it's a great walking course. I do love VV though..

I'd also play Cholla nearly as often as Saguaro. Cholla has more funner holes.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A virgin in Phoenix
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2013, 11:19:21 PM »
Sven,

Vista Verde is definitely worth checking out - but don't expect to walk, it's cartball.

Southern Dunes is a bit of a drive from Scottsdale but a really good, and walkable :), track.





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