[Steve Wilson]

It's my understanding that if you are faced with overhanging branches that potentially impede your swing you incur a penalty if you alter that area by even so much as knocking a leaf loose during a practice swing, but if you do said damage while in the course of your actual swing then you incur no penalty.  If my understanding is correct then we can proceed to an unusual situation I witnessed in golf league last night.

One of the tees suffers from serious overgrowth by low hanging branches.  One of our opponents teed up last night and then in the midst of a practice swing took out a branch and several leaves.  As soon as it happened he cursed, looked up in surprise and then proceed to pick up his peg and ball and move further out on the tee away from the overhead obstacle.  I didn't say  anything at the time, nor would I be interested in trying to enforce a penalty, but what is the situation here?

My thinking is that no penalty would be incurred since the ball is not technically in play until you make a purposeful swing at it.
And if I am wrong (the player would be subject to penalty) would he then escape the penalty by teeing up in another spot that would be unaffected by any advantage he might have gained in altering the overhead obstacle.

Thinking about it further, what happens if the player doesn't disocover the overhead obstruction on his practice swing but tangles with them on his real swing and misses the ball.  As he has  made a purposeful swing, he incurs no penalty.  However, reteeing the ball is no longer an option as it is now in play.


Now that I've gone this far, here's another twist.  Let's say the player faces a similar situation for a second shot.  In the course of his practice swing he knocks some leaves loose.  At that point he decides he can't hit the ball from that spot, declares it unplayable and takes a drop away from the tree.  Is he still liable to the penalty for having taken down the leaves?

[Dennis_Harwood]

Penalty in both cases for a breach of Rule 13-2

Dec 13-2/14 provides:

"Q. On the teeing ground a player broke off a branch of a tree which was interfering with his swing.  The player maintained that such action was not a breach of 13-2 because the ball was not yet in play.  Was the player correct?

A. No. The player was in breach of 13-2 for improving the area of his intended swing. Although Rule 13-2 allows a player to eliminate irregularities on the teeing ground, it does not allow him to break a branch interfering with his swing. THE PENALTY WOULD APPLY EVEN IF THE PLAYER, BEFORE PLAYING HIS STROKE, RETEED ON THE TEEING GROUND."

To the same effect through the green(practice swing knocks down leaves, direction of play then changed for stroke) 13-2/24--Two stroke penalty-

[Steve Wilson]

Dennis thank you very much for providing such an unambiguous and documented answer.  

It's obvious I was wrong on both counts.  The moral of this story is examine your situation before you start flailing about.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dennis Harwood,

Something seems wrong with that decision.

The teeing ground is a prepared plot of land, clearly defined by markers and the rectangular distance of two club lengths behind the markers.

Why on earth would a committee permit the placing of tees, where those teeing up in the designated area would have their swings impeded by tree branches, deliberately causing the potential for breach of the above rule ?

I think that it's a bad decision and should be changed.
Do you know the year in which that decision was added.

It would seem to me, that a prudent change in that decision would be to exempt the teeing area, on the tee shot, while preserving the decision for balls from another hole that land on the tee in the course of play.

[A_Clay_Man]

I've played the 18th at Pebble where the tees were so far back that not only was there no room to take two club lengths, playing from the blocks made you wonder if you'd hit the fence on your backswing. Of course not everybody has my extension.

This rule is one of the most violated and one of the hardest to call on an opponent in a match. I've seen pros, in competition, think nothing of this rule and definitly didn't call it on themselves. Sad!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why should competitors be penalized for a mistake on the part of the committee ?

Shouldn't the teeing area be free from obstruction, natural or man made ?

[A_Clay_Man]

"The Committee" may take the care in tour, usga, or other local associations, to set the tees. But I highly doubt it is anybody but the courses responsibility day in day out. Which makes me think, that these course value getting the tournaments, But, if examples as shown above are commonplace, they don't value the game that put them into a position to profit from it.

[Dennis_Harwood]

Bad set up or not, you play the course as you find it--The Committee is supposed to give 2 clublengths behind the tee markers, the same as it supposed to set the hole location so a ball will stop near the hole with a well hit putt-- But sometimes the Committee screws up--That does not give you the right to "change the course to your liking"

If you don't like a hole location you as a player don't take a soup can and "cut" a new hole location(ala Tom Meek's back setup location on the 18th at Olympic which he admitted was a mistake)--

How about an overhanging limb in front of the tee that cuts off the right side of the teeing ground--You believe you have a right to break it off because you are deprived of a line of play you wish to take?

Trees and growning things are a part of the course as are tee locations and the players do not have a right to alter the course to their liking-- Complain and criticize the Committee-- They may learn next time-- But don't assume because you have an opinion the course is not set up the way it should be that you have a right to change it

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dennis Harwood,

There is no rule regading hole location, just a general guideline.

The rules of golf clearly define the teeing area, and play must commence from that location.

There is also a huge difference with interference of one's stance or swing, from line of flight or sight interference.

The rules of golf provide relief from interference of one's swing or stance, not line of flight/sight relief, unless it's a local rule usually reserved for the PGA TOUR and USOPENS for grandstands and the like.  You may recall that Annika wanted line of flight relief on # 18 at Pumpkin Ridge, and was denied same.

Let's take A Clayman's example.

The committee places the tees so far back on # 18 at Pebble Beach that two club lengths are not available, and the fence clearly impedes every golfers swing.  What would you do with that obstruction ?  Now, substitute a bush or tree in its place.
What would you do with that obstruction ?

Remember, the teeing area is clearly defined in the rules of golf, and the golfer must commence play from that set area.

[Dennis_Harwood]

If an obstruction prevents a swing within the teeing ground you ask what I would do-- As the Rules provide(6-8a((iv) and Dec 11-4b/2) I would suspend play until the Committee had ruled on the issue and adjusted the markers if necessary--

Please note, and this is important, the Rules of Golf (adopted by the USGA and R&A) are elective rules which events or clubs at their option may or may not adopt for a competiton-- If your group elects to play a competiltion under some other Rules no one is going to arrest you--But when UGSA Rules are in effect either comply with them or don't play in the competition-

Further, if you are playing a friendly game and the ONLY people involved in the competition is your foresome, then you four are the Committee--Under the Rules you are granted the right to grant relief from such a situation(I suggest you not move the fixed markers because of other competitions on the course that day--but you could redefine the teeing ground, ie put a couple of tees in the ground for your group only)--

Its only when the competition is announced under USGA(or R&A) rules and other groups are involved that your suggestion of "self-help" is a no-no-- Your subjective opinion does not give you (or your foresome) the right to alter the course set up (or pick and chose which Rules your individual group will follow or waive)-- You must review that with the Committee(which is what the Rules contimplate)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dennis Harwood,

On their scorecards, many clubs include the phrase,
"USGA rules apply"
"USGA rules apply with the folling local rules........"
"USGA rules govern play"

Hence, in your example, and additionally, for handicap purposes, the foursome could not agree to waive the rules.

I wonder, in stroke play, if the competitors could agree to play a provisional ball, declaring that ball as the ball intended for play in the event their decision to play a provisional ball is upheld.

If they were the only foursome in the stroke play competition, my feeling is that they would be upheld, but if there was more than one foursome, and not all of the foursomes chose the provisional ball alternative, I don't think they would be upheld.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

No tee markers is simple,

Try getting to the first green and finding out that there is no hole.  

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