Design unimpeded by clients/investors

[Jud_T]

I was rereading the thread about awkward distances for long 3s or short 4s and TomD's comments about clients having issues with certain length holes and a couple of thoughts came to mind.  OK, firstly I know building a golf course is a major investment, but if you're going to hire one of the best GCAs in the business and pay accordingly, why limit their creativity by saying "the course has to be par 72, or at least a 7100 yard championship track, have returning 9s or I don't want any par 3's under 150 or over 220" etc.?  Furthermore, what courses have been the purest expression of the GCA with little to no meddling from clients or investors? (not talking about environmental restrictions here). Modern courses are of particular interest as they are typically the most expensive and come with more of today's preconceived notions of what makes for a marketable tournament venue, etc.  Sand Hills? Barnbougle? Pine Valley, Ballybunion, Prestwick, Brora, TOC?  Or for that matter the European Club? Pure conjecture on my part, but interested to hear others thoughts, particularly those in the biz.

[Don_Mahaffey]

While the owner of Wolf Point was always interested in the construction process, he did not impede the design process much at all as he had just a few requests.
1. As part of the course. design/construct a house site that was above any possible hurricane surge.
2. "I don't want to lose balls" (the last few times I played with him he made it around with one ball)
3." Make it hard"
4." Make it outrageously good" (I think this comment came after we had already started and he was getting a look at what Mike had in mind)

In my book, that qualifies as next to no design impedance

[Jud_T]

Don,

Thanks. That sounds like a pretty darned good brief, with the possible exception of #3.  Of course #3 isn't so bad given #2!

[Tim_Weiman]

Don,

I will never have the money to sponsor a golf course project, but if I did I would probably be a bit like your man with Wolf Point. That is, throw out a few basic ideas and then let the architect interpret/implement them to the best of their ability.

Certainly, I like the idea of no lost balls. Mackenzie was right about that.

[Tom_Doak]

I've been very lucky to find a bunch of clients who want me to do my best work, and I can definitely say that sometimes, at least, certain courses have turned out BETTER because of the client's input ... notably, at Pacific Dunes.  Mr. Keiser also made a very important suggestion at Barnbougle when I was doing the routing there.

Other than that suggestion, though, I would identify Barnbougle along with Ballyneal as the two projects of mine where I had complete carte blanche with regard to the design.  Well, those and High Pointe and Apache Stronghold.

[Frank Pont]

Jud,

Sometimes the best clients are the ones who know the least about golf, but have total confidence in your ability. That was basically the situation at Swinkelsche.

[Scott Sander]

So what do GCAs want or need in terms of outside influence?

In an ideal world, would a developer simply turn you lose on a piece of property?

Or do you want to know things like...

...the kind of golfer who will use the course most often?
...whether the development is deeply speculative or on a comparatively low-risk enterprise?
...design predilections the developer might have?
...tournament aspirations the developer might have?
...the labor pool from which the maintenance will draw?

Other things?

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, I don't know if you posted this on another thread, but, what were your marching orders for Streamsong?

[Bill Brightly]

I know Roger Hansen gave C & C full reign when building Hidden Creek  because he told me. Very interesting GCA.Com write-up about the process of hiring of Bill Coore for this course:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/hidden-creek-golf-club/

[Jason Thurman]

OK, firstly I know building a golf course is a major investment, but if you're going to hire one of the best GCAs in the business and pay accordingly, why limit their creativity by saying "the course has to be par 72, or at least a 7100 yard championship track, have returning 9s or I don't want any par 3's under 150 or over 220" etc.?

Assuming most developers are successful businessmen, I can understand them wanting input on things that they think are important to their target market. They're paying the bill, after all. If I commissioned a famous architect to build a home, I'd still want to give him lots of input on the things that matter to me even though I'd be a comparative moron. I'm sure I'd feel the same if I were having a golf course built. We all have an inner Bob Lang lurking and waiting to come out.

It's interesting that Tom Doak mentions High Pointe and Apache Stronghold as courses where he had free reign, as both of those courses have had significant struggles financially. I doubt the quality of the golf course's construction has been the culprit behind the struggles of either, and it's obviously a very small sample. But maybe it's a sign that the developer didn't have a clear enough concept driving their business model. Their lack of early input and subsequent struggle may both have been symptoms of an overall lack of direction.

Or not. Still, interesting to see those two courses listed together.

[Tom_Doak]

So what do GCAs want or need in terms of outside influence?

In an ideal world, would a developer simply turn you lose on a piece of property?

Or do you want to know things like...

...the kind of golfer who will use the course most often?
...whether the development is deeply speculative or on a comparatively low-risk enterprise?
...design predilections the developer might have?
...tournament aspirations the developer might have?
...the labor pool from which the maintenance will draw?

Other things?

I want to know what the client's goals are, including whether tournament play is part of that.

Beyond that, I like to have a sense of the client's feelings for golf, and what it is he loves about the game, to make sure that the course I'm doing doesn't conflict with that too much.

Adam, our client at Streamsong had played all the courses in Bandon, and he wanted our work at Streamsong to be comparable in quality.  But he's a pretty strong player, so he did tell us he wanted both courses to be 7500 yards.  I think he said "7500" because he wanted "7200" and he knew we'd drag our heels getting up to whatever number he said.  

Bill B, I don't know any of the details about Hidden Creek.  But, generally, I do know that the clients who make a display of telling everyone they gave the architect a free hand, are not always the ones who did!

[Tom_Doak]

It's interesting that Tom Doak mentions High Pointe and Apache Stronghold as courses where he had free reign, as both of those courses have had significant struggles financially. I doubt the quality of the golf course's construction has been the culprit behind the struggles of either, and it's obviously a very small sample. But maybe it's a sign that the developer didn't have a clear enough concept driving their business model. Their lack of early input and subsequent struggle may both have been symptoms of an overall lack of direction.

Or not. Still, interesting to see those two courses listed together.

Jason:

Yes, I think it's fair to say that neither of those clients was really sure about what they were doing.  That's why, generally speaking, I'd rather have a client who's involved [as long as he doesn't want to design the course himself], than be given true carte blanche.  At the end of the day, you hand the keys over to your client, so it's important for him to know [and to love] what you've given him.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill B, I don't know any of the details about Hidden Creek.  But, generally, I do know that the clients who make a display of telling everyone they gave the architect a free hand, are not always the ones who did!

Well, while Roger is a very succesful guy, he is also very down to earth. He wasn't making a display, he was responding to my questions about the building of Hidden Creek. His response was something like: "Once I had Bill Coore building my course, I stayed out of his way and let him work." But you could ask Bill.