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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
VK on Slow Play
« on: February 14, 2013, 10:45:30 PM »
There were slow play threads bubbling two weeks ago and at the time Ron M engaged me off-line, which turned into something he placed on his buffalogolfer.com platform:

I just remembered he did that, looked at it tonight and thought it would have some value to share with you:

http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/statement-of-belief-on-slow-play-in-golf/

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2013, 01:56:50 PM »
There is a column by Ryan Harrington in the current issue of GolfWorld about speeding up play in college tournaments. At the moment it is not available on line.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2013, 02:02:27 PM »
I'll be interested to see that if i can catch a copy or if it goes on-line.

I think the 'captive audience' element of sanctioned tournament play (HS, college, amateur, professional) has it somewhat easier than the proprietor class.

They can be spartan, 'scare' the crap out of participants, set a standard and say tough-s*** to protesting violators.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2013, 02:16:43 PM »
VK -

Among the greens fees paying public, there is no doubt an element of "I paid my $60-$100-$150 green fee, I'll play from whatever tees I want to and take as much time as I need."

Operators of daily fee golf courses have to walk a fine line between maintaining a decent pace of play to please one segment of their customers vs. irritating/aggravating another segment. It is not an easy situation.

DT

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2013, 02:18:37 PM »
VK seems to believe that carts are the cause of slow play yet the slowest of all players are mandated to walk. 

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2013, 03:04:59 PM »
I have been a walking scorer on European Senior Tour Events and followed Walker Cup matches on foot. They don't hang around. They take time over their shots, particularly discussing with their caddies exactly how they are going to play their shots, but once they are committed they get on with it and they walk quickly. They are already planning their next shots as one of their playing partners is preparing. There is no wasted time. They do take a long time on the putting green, but they seem to me to justify that by their exceptional reading of the green.

I used to be a very fast player. Nowadays there is no point in my taking ages preparing a shot because I will not execute it as intended. Unfortunately that does mean that I spend a lot of time looking for the ball in the long grass, trees and brambles. That is when I recall one of Dr Mac's essentials - a minimum of time spent looking for the ball. If only I could say 'It went into the long grass about here. I drop one on the edge of the fairway and add two strokes.' No, I have to trudge back to the tee because I didn't realise it was lost and hadn't played a provisional. I have to call the match behind through and then play down with them until a gap opens up.

I carry my clubs, as do my two sons (and my wife). We three lads played in a medal last weekend and with no hold ups we took 3 hours even though our combined gross scores were nearly 300 (the majority mine, of course)! Carrying our clubs, a year or two ago, my wife and I played 18 holes at Royal Worlington in 2 hours 15 minutes. There was nobody else out on the course but I did take lots of pictures to post on here as a photo tour.

But the record for 18 holes used to be with my brother-in-law on The Old Course. Every year in the 70s and 80s we used to enjoy a few days in St Andrews around Easter. You didn't need to enter the ballot and you could play two rounds a day (cheaply) without any difficulty. With few out on the course we went round in 1 hour 45 minutes. Next tee is immediately beside the green you have just played. Very little looking for the ball as there is almost no gorse. Carrying clubs. Bliss!

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2013, 03:11:47 PM »
JK,

I'm disappointed you took the reading or that I allowed that one, because I in no way think carts are responsible for slow play.

A poor cart traffic system, for the routing and regular conduct of play at a particular venue, can be an awful contributor to slow play in some degree, but I'm a believer in carts and there fiscal/facility capabilities, much more so than a villain.

I may have done a poor job in composing this, if yours is widely held insight into the piece.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2013, 03:48:17 PM »
VK,

I do think there is one rule that could be adopted to speed up the game and that is to have continous putting. I realize that an opponent's line is sacred, but how much damage is done by the following group tramping over the green where one has delicately tip-toed around the same spot. With the elimination of spikes I see no impediment to the change. I managed to persuade a group of us at MPCC to try it......they liked it.

Bob

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 09:47:56 PM »
BH,

I'm sympathetic to that idea as we sorta of always practiced it among ourselves in my small circle of compadres when I played more than 50 holes a year.  For sure, we always frequented places where pace was not an issue, but we never took unto ourselves more than 3:45 to play a fourball round

I think for the Tour and/or the USGA, if they do a study -- they are going to find it has a great positive impact on pace.  For those bodies, that issue, alongside "rulings" or where to proceed with play, are going to yield empirical results.

For those on TV, another issue that will eventually be addressed is the cellphone/camera issue...on the part of the spectators.  I watched the 06 Open Championship at Hoylake, where Tiger and JM Olazabal were the final group and they were 1.66 holes off pace from the penultimate pairing...RnA was going to start the clock, but never officially did and Azinger had it pegged dead-on, "They cannot penalize these guys, a final group no less, when they have had to back off their shots about 15 times each in the first nine holes." (Because of gallery behaviors in this regard)

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Patrick_Mucci

Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2013, 12:42:24 AM »
VK,

I do think there is one rule that could be adopted to speed up the game and that is to have continous putting. I realize that an opponent's line is sacred, but how much damage is done by the following group tramping over the green where one has delicately tip-toed around the same spot. With the elimination of spikes I see no impediment to the change. I managed to persuade a group of us at MPCC to try it......they liked it.

Bob,

Continuous putting is heresy in match play  ;D


Bob

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2013, 12:46:48 AM »
Bob,

Continuous putting is heresy in match play  ;D[/b][/size][/color]


Absolutely permissable in Wolf though.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Gib_Papazian

Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2013, 03:51:07 PM »
The rare golf I play these days at my club is usually confined to a Saturday morning dew-sweep - usually first off on the Ocean Course with my best friend and a pair of elderly speed-burners. Of the entire Olympic Club "daybreak group" (which includes roughly 30 players on both courses), I believe there is exactly one player who takes a buggy - owing to a prosthetic leg.

Yet somehow - Ocean or Lake - it NEVER takes more than 3 1/2 hours to hoof it. Every subgroup has its own particular set of mores, but even with cross-pollination, the overriding ethos is simply to get on with it. Sometimes it is that simple. In our case, the rule is that the pin does not get removed for the first few holes unless you've got a birdie putt of less than 15 feet. Yes, that is a violation, but we finish the Ocean in 3 hours without feeling rushed for even a moment.

The article above suggesting "horizontal cart paths" nearly made me gag - evidently that writer has not priced golf balls lately, beyond X-Out Top Flites in the discount barrel.

The slow play problem at San Mateo Muni had always been an issue and after the course closed for a full remodel, part of the redesign committee reassembled to tackle the problem under the theory that the best time to commence a pace-of-play initiative was Day #1 when the course reopened under the name Poplar Creek.

Our "Marshals" at the time were led by a lovable old grouch named Julio who did a terrific job untangling backups and generally keeping the herd moving towards the barn. The problem was all he had in his quiver was a stick and no carrot, so we spent quite a bit of time as policy wonks trying to put a few more tools at his disposal.

From a redesign standpoint, I tried to convince our architect to avoid backups on the first three holes - which usually sets the tone for the day - but after construction began, changes were made to #2 and #3 that proved poor choices; what was done cannot be untangled without a massive expenditure.

Below is what I wrote for our local rag. I do not know if any of these ideas are still being pursued years later, but this is a simplified version of our original set of solutions:    

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


What is the difference between a Ranger, Marshal and Player Assistant?

Whatever name you choose, Poplar Creek has begun the process of hiring a staff of specially trained men and women to keep play moving along. Information for interested parties can be found below.

It ought to be a simple matter to attract people like Julio Bracessco, who has achieved iconic status for his bluntly effective method in moving along dawdling laggards.  But Julio he is a rare commodity.
        
In a perfect world, marshals would not be necessary as the majority of golfers play without delay and when approached by a fellow golfer asking to “play through,” are unfailingly polite and accommodating.

Compared to every other sport, we do a remarkable job of policing ourselves.  Civility and good etiquette are the rule and not the exception, be it at private clubs or the local muni.

However, the world is not perfect and the necessity remains for on-site monitoring. We sat down with general manager Tim Heck, who has drawn up a multi-pronged strategy for keeping the speed of play at an acceptable level without resorting to cattle prods.

The new crew will be called “Player Assistants, a more palatable moniker designed to reflect a more player-friendly and less confrontational policy. Heck believes in using motivation to gain cooperation from the golfing reprobates amongst us.

Some issues will be easily resolved by simply setting a quick pace in the morning as a precedent. Golfers who have proven to be speed-burners around the course will be given preferential tee times.  Fear of losing the privilege of an early starting time will be motivation enough.      

And just what to do about the dilatory slugs holding up the parade every  weekend? Some donkeys are not easily cajoled and practice passive (or aggressive) resistance with expertise. To find out, we queried the usual suspects at the 19th hole, who quickly conjured up a list of the prime offenders with suggestions on how to use the carrot and the stick:

BOB the BLOB: Easy to spot as he slowly waddles down the fairway with jiggling gut, ill fitting shorts and a thin-strapped canvass bag dragging from the weight of a six-pack of beer  - barely enough supply to last to the half-way house. Bob’s pre-shot routine involves three reverse-pivot practice swings exposing his girthy midriff. Wearing high-top tennis shoes, he has sun screen dripping from his ruddy red face but still wears his cap backwards.

Player Assistant strategy: Promise Blob a pitcher of beer if he finishes in four hours and simply stand aside.  This can backfire, as Bob will forever-after play slowly hoping to get the same deal.
            
MRS. RULES CHAIRMAN: Severe, no-nonsense woman who always has a hyphen in her name like Periwinkle-Smith and runs the ladies golf section.  Owns 37 plaid wool skirts, worn even in the heat of August.  She last conceded a putt or tipped a waiter during the Johnson administration.  Hopelessly anal about rules technicalities, she even marks tap-ins, insisting everyone else also do so. A former winner of the club championship, she never stops reminding everyone about it either.

Player Assistant strategy: This is a toughie, but the consensus is to appeal to her ego.  “Oh Mrs. Smith, you are the best player in the club so we are coming to you for help in moving some of your playing partners along. . . . .”

CHEAP CARL: Nice guy who means well, but thinks five hours is the normal time for eighteen holes. Always carries a ball retriever and fishes around the edges of water hazards.  Takes more pride in the fact he has never bought a golf ball than his career round. Also walks along the rough line with a sand wedge, poking under the bushes. Despite having 23 boxes of old balls in his garage, Carl will let two groups play-through before giving up.

Player Assistant strategy: When you find Carl wandering around looking for that water-logged Titleist, toss down a brand new Top Flite and loudly shout “Here it is!” Carl will gladly get moving and never tell his playing partners. After all, the only thing worse to him than losing a ball is a two dollar nassau.

UNCLE JOE: “What’s the rush?” he wants to know, adjusting his polyester beltless slacks as he plumb bob’s a short putt for par (when his opponent has already conceded the hole). “Golf courses are not supposed to be race tracks,” he grouses at anyone gently trying to prod him along. Joe is worth a small fortune, but still gripes the fees are too high.  After wandering around the course for five hours, Joe coughs up $1.50 for coffee with free refills and spends the rest of the afternoon playing gin and driving the waitress crazy.    

Player Assistant strategy: Joe loves to play early, so he is a prime candidate for the preferred tee-time program. He can play quickly if  he wants to, the trick is to make him want to. Even if he occasionally falls a hole behind, promise him lunch if his group stays in position the rest of the round. Or better yet, threaten to pair  him with Mrs. Periwinckle-Smith next time.

CHAD the YUPPIE: Nike clothes, Calloway clubs, expensive cigars, enormous bag and an ego to match.  Thinks he is WAY better than he is, and therefore plays from the tips.  Swings so hard on every tee he nearly ruptures himself and always takes a cart. A long hitter, but his air mail has no zip code. Most of the Pro V1 balls that Cheap Carl finds in the water were Chad’s -  easily identified by his name imprinted into the cover. Chad paid his green fees and is going to take as long as he wants to.

Player Assistant strategy: Taken alone, Chad can be embarrassed to get moving. However, this particular donkey tends to travel in packs of four that cannot be coaxed, bribed, shamed, cajoled or reasoned with. Here, the solution is to give them a warning and then refund their fees and toss them off the track. Sooner or later they will get accepted at Bushwood CC and become somebody else’s problem.

And what do when all of these lollygaggers get paired in the same group? Well, that is what we have Julio for, but my vote is to pull out the cattle prod.      

« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 04:29:00 PM by Gib Papazian »

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2013, 05:44:25 PM »
A damn fine post Gib.

If only it were realistic to bribe so many people.....I'm increasingly thinking the prod may be the A1 solution.  :'( ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2013, 08:59:41 PM »
Bob,

Continuous putting is heresy in match play  ;D[/b][/size][/color]


Absolutely permissable in Wolf though.

Wolf is how Bob supplements his Social Security. 

Gib_Papazian

Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2013, 09:09:13 PM »
Paul,

Believe it or not, we thought it all the way through. For instance, the actual cost to the course of a pitcher of beer is very little. Top Flites bought wholesale are also cheap - and the course has the option of selling used balls at a decent profit to recoup part of the cost. If you want to get rid of Chad, just cordon off the back tees and make him play from the whites until he can establish a verifiable handicap.     

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2013, 09:12:13 PM »
Gib, sounds like you are setting up another screen play.  You have a nice start on the character development and premise for the 2rst century sequel to Caddieshack.   ;D

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2013, 09:19:36 PM »
Gib,

does the venue use two tees on premium morning?  If yes, I was wondering how the challenge of speed demons (rightfully positioned in the opening cohorts) slamming into the rear of the back nine field went...or are any Back 9 times over well before they might jackrabbit around.

Oftentimes, one of my problems being a starter was that the groups at 7:15, 7:23, etc were TOO fast, they'd hit the back at 8:50, 8:55...and by the 11th hole they might be getting on the last group of the back (usually, seniors or older players who didn't need to be done early).

I hate two tees on busy days, but it's a necessity unless the super can consistently get them out there at 6:45 or earlier.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2013, 10:13:00 PM »
One of the many funny exchanges I had with private club players about slow play occurred about ten years ago, when I had to break up the normal routine and put a few players out earlier than the normal 2 or 3 foursomes that occupied the first times. 

Now even though the traditional few groups got their way 98.995% of the time without offering me any undue tribute, still this ONE time, they were grumbling.  And none at this club could grumble more vociferously than a large patron I shall call "JR."  JR was 6'5" about 310 lbs and was like a pit bull with a heart of gold.  I loved the man.  He had wild, Einstein hair; he cracked bad Catskill and "Airplane" jokes all the time and he was undisputed Club-Throwing Champion of these parts.

He was P'O'ed at the very thought of having to be held up one iota and was already building his dissatisfaction to a fever pitch before one shot had been played.

Thankfully, the day went well it seemed.  After both tees closed for rounding and I had an hour and a half until Ladies' play began, I went out for my traditional Rangering ride to measure times, silent ranger a few groups, watch the younger caddies and so forth.  The day looked remarkably fit and those lead ponies in whom JR had severe circumspection played in just over 3:45...not bad I thought.

But JR was pissed.  I was out on the course when he made the turn, so I had no advance knowledge of his anger and now my office was busy again, ladies are going out, caddies starting to come in, chits signing, other caddies being assigned, "more balls needed at the range" etc, etc. 

So JR takes me completely by surprise when he bursts into my office, steeping with anger and profuse large man, red-faced, wild hair sweat from the 86 degree day and what had transpired.  He bellowed, "EVERY F***ING SHOT VINNIE; WE WAITED ON EVERY F****ING SHOT! FROM #1 TO #FUCKING 18...(he pointed in the directions of those holes to help me understand the scope of his anger)...WE WAITED ON EVERY F****ING SHOT! He wasn't done.  He then pointed around the circumference of the course and danced in a circle urging me to follow his compass needle.  "ALLLLLLL AROUND THE WHOLE F****ING COURSE WE WAITED...DOWN THERE...OVER THERE..."

I was triply flustered...from the reversal of what I thought was a good day...to the surprise of JR's strident entrance...to the volume of activity I had around me.  (At the same time, some female golfer was whining..."Is Gladys Henner's group first or are we?") all I could do was respond in kind with the only kind of avant-garde answer I could:

"Jeff, wait a minute...wait a minute...cool down...hold it...Jeff?  When you got off the range, did you not go the first tee knowing there was omebody ahead of you?"

"Yeah. Yeah. So?" he responds.

"And when you got there and there was somebody you acknowledged was ahead of you, did they not hit their shots off #1 and walk out to the fairway?"

"Yeah. Yeah. So?" his voice was all impatience, but quieting.

"And as they walked to their shots, you didn't hit, did you?  Of course you didn't. But eventually, they DID reach their ball, and played their second shot, and vacated safely, and you teed off....didn't you?

"Vinnie what is the point?"  He was all but tranquilized when I thundered:

"SO WHAT MADE YOU THINK IT WAS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT THE REST OF THE FUCKING DAY?! THEY DON'T DISAPPEAR DOWN A SUBWAY PLATFORM! ....Now, Mrs. Henner...Mrs. Robbins group is first."

Mrs. Henner thought it best not to lobby further, she quickly withdrew my from sight and further judgment. I looked at JR and he looked back at me, tryign to keep a straight face.

"Well, you're sure not going to get any shit from her this year."

We still laugh about it today.

cheers

vk


"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2013, 11:55:36 PM »
Gib,
That was a great post. I find that I really enjoy your posts. This is a very relevant post considering I walked off the course today after finishing the 4th hole 90 mins after I teed off on #1. We were on pace for over a 6 hour round and I was not about to subject myself to that kind of torture :D On the bright side, it was a glorious day and the company in my group was very good.

Gib_Papazian

Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2013, 12:19:06 AM »
V.Kmetz,

I literally fell out of my chair laughing at that story. Glad to know there are still some storytellers in the Treehouse.

Stephen,

After the first hole, "WHAT MADE YOU THINK IT WAS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT THE REST OF THE FUCKING DAY? ;D

Honestly, if it was a daily fee course, I hope you marched into the Pro Shop and asked for a refund. I did that years ago after a 3 hours and 15 minute front nine on the Silverado North Course - which I chose only to see if it was as good as the South. They not only refunded my fees, but insisted I come back to play the South as their guest. Sadly, I drove off and have never been back.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 12:20:53 AM by Gib Papazian »

Jeff Evagues

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2013, 01:01:39 AM »
Gib,
That was a great post. I find that I really enjoy your posts. This is a very relevant post considering I walked off the course today after finishing the 4th hole 90 mins after I teed off on #1. We were on pace for over a 6 hour round and I was not about to subject myself to that kind of torture :D On the bright side, it was a glorious day and the company in my group was very good.
Sounds like any day at any course at Bethpage.
Be the ball

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2013, 07:12:26 AM »
Or, as they tell you at Merion,
As Bobby Jones said,
“No round will ever be so good that it could not have been better. Perhaps that is why golf is the greatest of games.”

While the perfect round has yet to be played, playing golf slowly can lead to a disappointing experience for everyone on the course.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: VK on Slow Play
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2013, 11:13:06 AM »
Gib,

Your "slow play" cast of characters got a lot of people laughing, this guy too!

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

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