Golf Digest 2013-14 State lists

[Michael George]

Bill:

I think your list is pretty accurate.  A couple of differences:  I have not played Golf Club yet and my bet is that I have it #1 after I do.  Also, I think you have Kirtland too low (the bunkering and green complexes are incredible).  It would be 6-7 in my ranking, above Inverness and Scioto and certainly above Firestone South.   Also, I would add Firestone North around #14-15.  Otherwise, I think your rankings are pretty solid.

Re: Ohio golf, I simply don't understand 2 things (you may have heard me say them on this site before  :

(1) How Brookside is not ranked above Scioto and Inverness and in every magazine's top 100.  The greens are the best in the State of Ohio, without question, and the restoration has really made it an amazing place.  Should be no worse than #4 in every Ohio ranking.

(2) Everyone I know ranks Double Eagle where you did or below.  How does it stay in the top 100?  Every one of the big 4 in Cleveland is better.

[Michael George]

1. Muirfield Village

For real?  Just wondering.

Jonathan:

I struggle with Muirfield Village.  The golf course itself is crazy good in my opinion (holes 2, 3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 and 18 are really good golf holes).  I love playing it.  However, the "corporate nature" of the club and the houses surrounding the club really hurt the ambience of the place.  How do I quantify those 2 factors - I honestly don't know. 

[Bill McKinley]

Jonathan,

Yes I'm for real with that.  I played MV for the 2nd time this fall and it is a great golf course.  The par 5s are tremendous and I believe it is highly playable.  The difficulty knock is bogus in my opinion.  The corporate feel aspect is definitely something of a negative but the service that I experienced at the club has been superb.  The club's GM remembered me by name after I had only seen him once before a mere 10 months ago.  Pretty good stuff there!

I wouldn't put MV in my Top 5 played but I do put it as #1 in Ohio.  It is hard because I'm definitely much more of a Raynor fan than Nicklaus, but I still would put MV about Camargo and The Golf Club.

[BHoover]

Bill,

Thanks for sharing your list with us.  Very interesting.  I have not played Camargo, so I can't comment (although I hope to see it in 2013).  That said, I think the only major argument I would have is that Kirtland would be much higher on my list.  I would place Brookside (Canton) and Kirtland in the top 5-6.  I definitely agree with Michael that both Brookside and Kirtland would be higher than Scioto on my list, even though Scioto is my favorite course in Columbus.  I also would probably put The Golf Club ahead of MV, but I do agree that MV has to be somewhere near the top (admittedly, it's been 7-8 years since I last played The Golf Club).  Finally, I agree that Double Eagle continues to receive more respect than it probably deserves.  Don't get me wrong, I always have enjoyed playing there and think it's a fun course and cool atmosphere, but I would never choose it over Brookside, Kirtland, The Golf Club, MV or Scioto (and perhaps others that I have yet to play).

[Bill McKinley]

Michael,

I agree with you on you two things you don't understand about Ohio golf. It is strange that Double Eagle continues to be ranked ahead of some of the others that we both mentioned. Perhaps some local bias is in play there. I believe there's a strong base of Digest raters live in the Columbus area. That being said it's a very enjoyable day when you play Double Eagle and I'm glad that I've had the pleasure of playing there.

Brookside is probably a product of not enough evaluations as to why it is not ranked. In fact, if you look at the state by state, BCC is ahead of DEGC, so by that rationale Brookside would be in the top 100 if it had enough looks.

[Michael George]

Michael,

I agree with you on you two things you don't understand about Ohio golf. It is strange that Double Eagle continues to be ranked ahead of some of the others that we both mentioned. Perhaps some local bias is in play there. I believe there's a strong base of Digest raters live in the Columbus area. That being said it's a very enjoyable day when you play Double Eagle and I'm glad that I've had the pleasure of playing there.

Brookside is probably a product of not enough evaluations as to why it is not ranked. In fact, if you look at the state by state, BCC is ahead of DEGC, so by that rationale Brookside would be in the top 100 if it had enough looks.

Bill - love your politically correctness regarding Double Eagle - that, and your game, are the reasons you make a better golf pro than me.  However, it is the best maintained golf course that I have ever played.

I hope you are right about Brookside.   Outside of Pinehurst #2, it may be the best Ross I have played (including Oakland Hills), but I need to get up to Franklin Hills this year.  I hear it is great.

[Bill McKinley]

Michael,

Haha! You never know who may be looking 

[John McCarthy]

Ohio golfers; 

I've never played in your state
  So, are those in the top ten better than the Scarlett course?  I saw that on TV and it looked really fun
 

[Bob_Garvelink]

Michigan


1.  Crystal Downs
2.  Oakland South
3   Arcadia
4  Forest dunes
5  Kingsley
6 Lost Dunes
7 True North
8 Point o Woods
9  Marquette
10 Tullymore
11 Oakland North
12 Wushowhan
13 Franklin Hills
14 Bay Harbor
15 Black Lake
16 The Bear
17 Boyne Heather
18 Lakewood Gailes
19 Eastwynd
20 Eagle Eye

[Bob_Garvelink]

Michigan


1.  Crystal Downs
2.  Oakland South
3   Arcadia
4  Forest dunes
5  Kingsley
6 Lost Dunes
7 True North
8 Point o Woods
9  Marquette
10 Tullymore
11 Oakland North
12 Wushowhan
13 Franklin Hills
14 Bay Harbor
15 Black Lake
16 The Bear
17 Boyne Heather
18 Lakewood Gailes
19 Eastwynd
20 Eagle Eye

What a great group of golf courses.  A little suprised that Point-O-Woods, Boyne Heather, and The Bear made the cut.  All fine tracks but they nothing on those courses stands out to me. 

[BHoover]

Ohio golfers; 

I've never played in your state
  So, are those in the top ten better than the Scarlett course?  I saw that on TV and it looked really fun
 

John,

I don't think there's any doubt that the top ten in Ohio are superior to OSU Scarlet, both architecturally and in terms of conditioning. In Columbus alone, I would place it behind MV, The Golf Club, Scioto (which is practically around the corner), Double Eagle and, arguably, Pinnacle. I would place it ahead of Tartan Fields and Wedgewood and probably Longaberger.

I used to play Scarlet all the time while I was in law school at OSU, and I always enjoyed it (not least because it cost me $18 as a student). It's a brute of a course, much more so after the Nicklaus renovation, but it's still worth playing. You just have to accept, and not be bothered by, the fact that Jack renovated Scarlet for tournament play, rather than member and student play. Scarlet is OSU's home course, and it hosts both the Web.com Tour event and the Ohio high school state tournament, in addition to normal play and numerous outings. The real drawback is that Scarlet gets a LOT of play, so it can be chewed up at times.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Re: Pennsylvania

I'm trying to figure out why the raters didn't score Bedford Springs in the Top 25, particularly in light of the courses in the bottom 3:

Ace Club
Moselem Springs
Nevillewood

Obviously, Golfweek raters have better taste in courses.

The only public access courses in the 25 are Mystic Rock and the formerly private Totteridge.

[Andy Troeger]

I haven't played all the players, but OSU Scarlet post-renovation isn't much fun. Personally, not only is it not close to Muirfield Village, The Golf Club, and Scioto, but its also not close to Wedgewood, Double Eagle, Tartan Fields, or Longaberger. I'm sure plenty of the ones I haven't seen are also better.

I have the same opinion of Double Eagle as has already been stated--very good conditioning, some good holes, but not enough for Top 100 status. I think The Golf Club and Muirfield Village are really good. NCR South is very underrated. I'm not really sure architecturally why Scioto is a Top 100 course--its good but I have a hard time seeing "great" there.

[Mark Steffey]

Jonathan:

I struggle with Muirfield Village.  The golf course itself is crazy good in my opinion (holes 2, 3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 and 18 are really good golf holes).  I love playing it.  However, the "corporate nature" of the club and the houses surrounding the club really hurt the ambience of the place.  How do I quantify those 2 factors - I honestly don't know. 

how?  you no doubt have a milkshake and realize you can't enjoy yourself any more!

[BHoover]

I haven't played all the players, but OSU Scarlet post-renovation isn't much fun. Personally, not only is it not close to Muirfield Village, The Golf Club, and Scioto, but its also not close to Wedgewood, Double Eagle, Tartan Fields, or Longaberger. I'm sure plenty of the ones I haven't seen are also better.

You really think that OSU Scarlet is a lesser course than Wedgewood or Tartan Fields? Maybe I'm just being sentimental, but I would definitely rather play Scarlet than either of those. But then again, debating this is what makes it fun.

[Andy Troeger]

Brian,
In fairness my uncle is a member at Wedgewood so its about the only course in Ohio that I've played more than once. But I still think there's quite a bit to like there, especially on the front nine. I think its probably quite a bit better than 25th in Ohio, but I haven't seen all the candidates. I don't see a huge gap between it and Double Eagle, except perhaps in conditioning (and a lack of a housing development at Double Eagle).

I found Scarlet to be difficult without being fun. The 4th hole with the pond was about the only memorable hole, and not for its quality! I wish I had seen it before the renovation, because I think I might have liked older versions. I'm no huge fan of Tartan Fields, but I'd go back there first.

[BHoover]

Andy,
Interestingly, the 4th hole at Scarlet (par 5 with the pond) was probably the most dramatically changed of any hole on the entire course. The old green, which was set at a diagonal and was much much narrow and longer, used to be roughly 100 yards to the left of the current green. That pond also was not there, at least in it's current form, nor was its predecessor in play to the extent it is now. I'm rather ambivalent about the 4th. I prefer the old version except that I did kind of hate the old green (not its location). I don't think the current 4th hole fits with the rest of the course, but I wouldn't say I hate it.

I think the best word to describe Scarlet is "difficult".