[Mark Pearce]

Another post BUDA thread.

In his profile of Silloth, Ran describes the 13th as "a superb, one of a kind hole" (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/silloth1/silloth000266/).  It's a 510 yard par 5 from the tips, only 450 from the yellows.  A drive to a fairly level fairway is followed, in still conditions, by a second to a higher level fairway, with a heathery hill to carry and thick heather on both sides of the landing area.  The third is played from a hog's back fairway and then an approach to an elevated, narrow green, with fall offs right, left and rear.  In still conditions it's tough.  In a prevailing wind it's a monster.

In a strong wind (perhaps 30 mph) on Thursday it bacame a beast.  Many (most?) players at BUDA chose on Thursday and today (in perhaps 20 mph winds) to lay up short of the rise in the fairway with their second shots.  One BUDAite, playing well, chose to hit his putter along the fairway for the 50/60 yard lay up and played the hole as a par 6.

There's no doubt this is a tough hole.  In my mind it is one of the great approach shots, demanding precise placement and the ability to cope with a terrifying approach, which doesn't get any easier with a lofted club into that wind.  However, Rich Goodale was of the view that the hole would be improved by having the rise in the fairway bulldozed.  I don't agree but I would clear out heather on either side of the fairway to give a wider landing area for the second shot, allowing players to hit a fairway wood or utility without risking a possible lost ball or certain dropped shot with a marginally mishit ball.  Niall Carlton, who knows the course best thinks it should be left just the way it is.

Can a hole where, after a well struck tee shot, an 11 handicap golfer might sensibly shoose to lay up 50 to a 100 yards be a great hole?

[Sean_A]

Mark

The 13th is one of the highlights of Silloth.  If the wind gets harsh, move up a tee or two.  No way I would bulldoze the hill.  If any change is necessary it is a more sympathetic material for the path.




Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Great question, Mark!

Sean (and Niall), sorry to disagree, but the 13th at Silloth is neither what the club thinks it is (i.e. their "signature" hole) nor how you perceive it.  IMHO it is perhaps the only "lowlight" of Silloth, in that it is a "stupid" golf hole (pace Chip Oat...).  Ridiculously wide farway (with no strategic advantage from either side (assuming that you don't spray it right or left into the rough/heather)).  Then, in calm conditions, a 200-yard "through the Clown's mouth and over the rough ground at 150 or so" second shot to a narrow sloping ribbon of fairway, or in the prevailing "In your face!" wind a lay-up to the semi-rough with a 6-iron (or putter) and then a rescue club up the hill, which if not hit with low handicap precision will end up short or right or left into the heathery Boondai.  Finally, a blind pitch up to a boring green, and if you are successful, you have already taken the four shots allocated you by General Par (Colonel Bogey's superior officer....).  Please tell me why you think this is a "highlight" of Silloth?

Mark

I do not think I ever said that the rise in the fairway should be bulldozed.  What I think I said (and believe) is that the gap between the heathery hills at 300 yards or so should be a narrow strip of fairway (a la Littlestone #2) rather than an iimpenetrable "no man's land" which dictates a lay up rather than encourages a bold and brave shot.  You could bulldoze that strip of land between the dunes into a proper strip of rising fairway in a day or so, and you would have a much, much better hole.

Rich

PS--other than the 13th hole anomaly, what a GREAT golf course!  Thanks for introducing most of us to it and organisaing yet another great BUDA.

rfg

[Mark Pearce]

Thanks for the photos, Sean.

Rich, I recall your mention of Littlestone 2, so am happy to be corrected.  And I think I agree.  Provide even a narrow strip of fairway up that slope (which might need some levelling) and you would improve the hole not just in Thursday's extreme conditions but in the more prevalent conditions we saw yesterday.  That would leave the challenge, perhaps, of a mid-iron to that green.  That green might be flat, Sean, but isn't boring, given how hard it is to hit.  A tough to putt green after all the challenge of hitting it in regulation would be too much.

[Sean_A]

Okay

I don't know of a par 5 like and for that reason alone I wouldn't alter the architecture of the hole.  For me, the wide open drive is really about busting that tee shot as far as you can because you know what is coming.  Nothing wrong with that.  I'll throw Rihc a bone.  Maybe the rough on the bank could be kept at a length which still allows for a go for it recovery.  Still, my best advice is to learn to accept your limitations and move forward when the weather dictates this is common sense. 

Mark - I don't have any problems with the green.  It is of a turtleback type and is difficult to hit even with a wedge in hand.

Ciao

[Martin Toal]

I was a member at Silloth for a few years, so I got to play this hole in a wide variety of conditions, and across a range of such conditions, the hole exhibits a huge variety of challenges. It is also interestingly set head to toe (although more or less opposite ) to the par-5 14th, and the contrast between the two is often stark.

I have played the 13th as a 3 wood and 5 iron, but also as a driver, 3 wood and 4 iron (just counting those rounds when I was more or less on the fairway, I have also played it as a driver, wedge, wedge, wedge etc).

I think it is a great hole and rarely easy. The tee shot is sometimes deceptively simple, but the second and third can be beastly. In calm conditions, as rare as those are, it is perfectly possible to hit 3 wood, mid iron and wedge into the heart of the green, but even then you are never complacent until the ball is holed.

[Ben Stephens]

Superb! - I played it so badly 5 times! One of the best bunkerless par 5's I have played alongside the 8th at Brancaster

I would not touch a thing! Maybe have a more forward tee to allow players to hit their second to the top level into the wind

[David Nelson]

I don't think its superb but I would not change it either.. its unique and I dare say was a brave move to build a green on the top of the dune like that... there is only room for a green and not much more!

[Michael Whitaker]

I think great par fives are determined by the challenge and decisions required on the second and third shots, especially the second. Too many fives offer nothing to decide on the second shot, but Silloth's 13th forces major decisions. During our first round I played the hole like a champ in routine fashion... driver, 2 hybrid, nine iron pitch. With the wind on Thursday Lynn and I played it to perfection in our foresomes match... driver, six iron, four iron, seven iron pitch. I can see where a path between the two levels could make an easier option possible for the second shot, but I'm not sure that is a good thing. There is something to be said for forcing the golfer to hitch up his pants or play pure strategy. I love the hole!

[Niall C]

Interesting comments guys. I know Peter referred to it as Silloths signature hole but I'm not sure the club makes much if any play of that. It just seems to be the hole most visitors remember and certainly the easiest to describe.

Like Martin I've played that hole in a variety of conditions and think its is an absolute belter of a hole. Due to the conditions ie. not a lot of run by links standards and a stiff breeze into the face, we perhaps only saw one aspect to it. I doubt any of us really had a realistic opportunity to go for the top deck in two which meant we all played to lay up before the pinch point.

More often than not, when I played this hole a lot when I was a member there I had the option of hitting to the top deck and indeed sometimes could hit the green. Both required well struck shots and let me tell you, hitting the top deck in two particularly with a fairway wood, is one of the most satisfying shots at Silloth. On one of those days with a bit of a breeze behind, it is possible to drive right upto the pinch point which then brings the green within range, however the closer you get to the pinch point, the narrower the fairway becomes, so you have to be accurate as well. Likewise once you get by the pinch point, the fairway is initially narrower with the heather clad hill to the right impinging on the fairway and then widens a bit but with a spine running down the fairway shedding balls left and right. Overall, its a bit of a hour glass shaped fairway. Beyond the drive, there really isn't any easy shot on the hole unless you want to play it all the way with short to medium irons.

One final thought, Lynn asked me after the round what the prevailing wind at Silloth was. Despite having played the course many hundreds of times I was stumped to give him an answer. My recollection was that the wind tended to vary between winter and summer but even then the wind tended to shift direction even in the course of a round. I don't think therefore making a judgement on the hole based purely on one set of variables is entirely valid however thats not stopped any of us in the past 

Niall

[Martin Toal]

Niall

The prevailing wind direction is invariably from the other direction.

[Tim Martin]

I think great par fives are determined by the challenge and decisions required on the second and third shots, especially the second. Too many fives offer nothing to decide on the second shot, but Silloth's 13th forces major decisions. During our first round I played the hole like a champ in routine fashion... driver, 2 hybrid, nine iron pitch. With the wind on Thursday Lynn and I played it to perfection in our foresomes match... driver, six iron, four iron, seven iron pitch. I can see where a path between the two levels could make an easier option possible for the second shot, but I'm not sure that is a good thing. There is something to be said for forcing the golfer to hitch up his pants or play pure strategy. I love the hole!

Mike-Wouldn`t you say that if you execute your second as intended there really is not much strategy in play on the third? As in you have determined how you want to play your third as a consequence of your second.

[James Boon]

I wouldn't say it was superb, but I enjoyed the challenge of taking the hole on. I also wouldn't want to do any work on it myself, but can see the argument for at least a narrow strip of fairway through the gap, even if its only to get some of that damn astro turf path from being so bloody prominent!

Cheers,

James

[Mark Pearce]

I think great par fives are determined by the challenge and decisions required on the second and third shots, especially the second. Too many fives offer nothing to decide on the second shot, but Silloth's 13th forces major decisions. During our first round I played the hole like a champ in routine fashion... driver, 2 hybrid, nine iron pitch. With the wind on Thursday Lynn and I played it to perfection in our foresomes match... driver, six iron, four iron, seven iron pitch. I can see where a path between the two levels could make an easier option possible for the second shot, but I'm not sure that is a good thing. There is something to be said for forcing the golfer to hitch up his pants or play pure strategy. I love the hole!

Mike-Wouldn`t you say that if you execute your second as intended there really is not much strategy in play on the third? As in you have determined how you want to play your third as a consequence of your second.

Tim,

In the wind on Thursday I had 80 yards to that green for my 4th shot.  I was quite pleased with the way I had played it.  Even then, I gave serious consideration to 4 different ways of trying to hit the green from 80 yards.  Full 7 iron, punched 4 iron, bunt a utility of hit a putter.  In any wind it becomes a tricky green to hit and asks the player to do more than just hit a stock shot for the distance.

[Michael Whitaker]

I think great par fives are determined by the challenge and decisions required on the second and third shots, especially the second. Too many fives offer nothing to decide on the second shot, but Silloth's 13th forces major decisions. During our first round I played the hole like a champ in routine fashion... driver, 2 hybrid, nine iron pitch. With the wind on Thursday Lynn and I played it to perfection in our foresomes match... driver, six iron, four iron, seven iron pitch. I can see where a path between the two levels could make an easier option possible for the second shot, but I'm not sure that is a good thing. There is something to be said for forcing the golfer to hitch up his pants or play pure strategy. I love the hole!

Mike-Wouldn`t you say that if you execute your second as intended there really is not much strategy in play on the third? As in you have determined how you want to play your third as a consequence of your second.

This is true, Tim, but once your die is cast you MUST execute the shot you have chosen. Nothing is more intimidating than trying to perfectly execute a shot after playing the "strategy" card. You've painted yourself into a corner at that point and there is little margin for error. It is a great feeling when the strategy works... and, a crushing defeat when it doesn't.

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