[Tom_Doak]

Has anyone seen the second edition of this book?

My host in France the last two days has been Kristel Mourgue d'Algue, who was the editor of the book.  [You really could not have a better host to show you around golf courses in France -- in addition to having an interest in golf architecture, she was also the NCAA golf champion, back in 1993 I think.]  She asked if anyone on Golf Club Atlas had talked about it and I didn't remember much of a thread, but starting one is the least I can do after making her watch me play golf the past two days!

It was an interesting book for me to critique since it is probably the closest thing to my Confidential Guide, and since I am starting to work on my own book again.  The scope of the book is pretty amazing, with courses from 66 countries [well, if you count Wales and Puerto Rico as separate countries] -- everything from 333 courses in the USA to 37 in Japan and a single course in Bahrain, Brunei, Greece and Guatemala and a few other unlikely spots.  I would guess that they have a bit of a quota for certain countries, since it takes a higher score for a course in the US to be listed than a course in Finland or Pakistan, but that's only right if they want to be a truly worldwide guide.

They never say exactly what their criteria for judging the courses are, but I guess they care quite a bit more about the facilities around the course and the conditioning than I do -- so there are more modern courses listed than I would list, and some courses left out which are full of character.  I suppose that fits their sponsors' profile as well, as Rolex would probably not choose to have a golf day for clients at Painswick!  But, that's good for me because it's the main thing that will make my book different whenever I finally get it done.

In the meantime, Kristel would appreciate some feedback on the courses that were included and which ones they missed, from those of you who have read the new edition.

[Scott Warren]

Tom,

Some previous discussion: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42011.0.html

Jim McCann appears to be familiar with it: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48536.msg1094869.html#msg1094869

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

This discussion group lives on raw meat, not petit fours.....

Somebody, please post the 1000 and let the games begin!

Rich

[Adam Lawrence]

I have a copy (But then Kristel knows that,as she gave it to me, at the Open). I have always been a fan, of the Europe-only Peugeot guide before, too. I often disagree with their ratings, but they are pretty much the only publication doing it the Michelin way, with anonymous inspectors. I would recommend the book to any travelling golfer - it isa very useful resource.

[Tony_Muldoon]

This article tells more

http://www.golf365.co.za/features_story/0,17923,9787_6322919,00.html

“A top score of 100 has been awarded to just 15 exceptional courses, each of singular historical and architectural merit, of which there are 7 in the British Isles (Carnoustie, Muirfield, The Old Course at St Andrews, Royal Birkdale, the Championship Course at Portmarnock, the New Course at Sunningdale and the Old Course at Royal County Down), 6 in the United States (Cypress Point, Torrey Pines (South), Augusta National, Pine Valley, Bethpage (Black), and Oakmont), with 2 in Australia (Kingston Heath and Royal Adelaide).”


Sounds like an ideal guide for great ball strikers!

[Bill_McBride]

Choked on my coffee when I read "Torrey Pines (South).".    No love for the North?

[Mark Johnson]

did someone seriously just mentioned cypress and torrey pines in the same sentence?

Not sure if Torrey should make top 250 in the US

[Jim Franklin]

This article tells more

http://www.golf365.co.za/features_story/0,17923,9787_6322919,00.html

“A top score of 100 has been awarded to just 15 exceptional courses, each of singular historical and architectural merit, of which there are 7 in the British Isles (Carnoustie, Muirfield, The Old Course at St Andrews, Royal Birkdale, the Championship Course at Portmarnock, the New Course at Sunningdale and the Old Course at Royal County Down), 6 in the United States (Cypress Point, Torrey Pines (South), Augusta National, Pine Valley, Bethpage (Black), and Oakmont), with 2 in Australia (Kingston Heath and Royal Adelaide).”


Sounds like an ideal guide for great ball strikers!

Torrey Pines a 100? I have played over 1000 courses and Torrey Pines doesn't come in the top 500.

[Anthony Butler]

Tom,

Some previous discussion: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42011.0.html

Jim McCann appears to be familiar with it: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48536.msg1094869.html#msg1094869

Tom D. probably best not to share your comments in the first thread with your hosts unless you have alternative accommodation arrangements....

[Joel_Stewart]

United States (Cypress Point, Torrey Pines (South), Augusta National, Pine Valley, Bethpage (Black), and Oakmont),

My guess is the poll was taken after the US Open at Torrey.  No Shinnecock, NGLA, Pebble Beach, Pacific Dunes or Merion seems unusual but we don't know the system or who the panelists are?

[Tom_Doak]

This article tells more

http://www.golf365.co.za/features_story/0,17923,9787_6322919,00.html

“A top score of 100 has been awarded to just 15 exceptional courses, each of singular historical and architectural merit, of which there are 7 in the British Isles (Carnoustie, Muirfield, The Old Course at St Andrews, Royal Birkdale, the Championship Course at Portmarnock, the New Course at Sunningdale and the Old Course at Royal County Down), 6 in the United States (Cypress Point, Torrey Pines (South), Augusta National, Pine Valley, Bethpage (Black), and Oakmont), with 2 in Australia (Kingston Heath and Royal Adelaide).”

Sounds like an ideal guide for great ball strikers!

Well, it's produced by a family of great ball strikers.  Kristel's mother, Cecilia Mourgue d'Algue, won more national amateur titles in Europe than anybody can even count.

The list you provided was from the first edition.  There were three changes this time -- Sunningdale and Torrey Pines and Royal Adelaide are down a notch, and Royal Melbourne, NGLA, and Maidstone (!) were elevated to 100 points out of 100.  It's possible they listened to a bit of my feedback in at least one of those instances.

Where I think their guide is most valuable is to give you a list of courses to check out in a country where you are unfamiliar.  For example, Germany.  They've listed a dozen courses in their top 1000, as follows:

90 pts - Hamburger G & CC and Sporting Club Berlin (Faldo cse)
85 pts - Club zur Vahr (Bremen), Frankfurter, Koln (Refrath cse), and Seddiner See (South cse)
80 pts - Fleesensee, Rethmar, Sporting Club Berlin (Palmer cse), and St. Leon-Rot
75 pts - Gut Larchenhof, Motzener See

I've only seen two of those courses, Hamburger and Bremen, and I would include both in my own book, although Bremen would be on the bubble.  For those who have been to Germany, what courses have they missed, and which are overrated?

I do think that when in doubt, they tend to include the Nicklaus and Fazio and Palmer and Player courses over those by less familiar names, which is too bad.  But their U.S. section did include places like Wild Horse and Black Mesa and Bayonne and Wolf Run and Eastward Ho, so they are somewhat inclusive of courses with lesser budgets as long as they're good enough.

[Philip Gawith]

Adam your note suggests a link between Peugeot guide and Rolex guide. Is that right?

[Tom_Doak]

Adam your note suggests a link between Peugeot guide and Rolex guide. Is that right?

Philip:

Peugeot was the sponsor of a European guide produced by the Mourgue d'Algue family for several years previously.  They eventually stopped publishing that, but when Rolex came on board they wanted a worldwide directory.  I think the methodology of rating the courses has carried over from the earlier book though I don't profess to know exactly what it is.

[Jim McCann]

Tom

Thanks for the heads up on the new second edition of the Rolex book.

I thought the first Rolex book was very good with many of the course narratives
a lot less wooly than those found in the Peugeot European Golf Guide. Perhaps
that was down to the influence of Bruce Critchley.

I've just ordered my copy of the new book now via Amazon.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I was a fan of the Peugeot guide but don't have the Rolex. The strength of the former was as a travel guide. Unlike magazine rankings and course-only books like TCG and TWAOG, the Peugeot contemplated the whole of the travel experience. Course info like history, designer, club contact, etc AND traveler's info like recommended hotels and restaurants, nearest airport, etc. In the back is a road atlas that shows the locations of the courses profiled so you can see what's nearby and get an idea of how to get there. (The course entries include directions.)

For me the value of the Peugeot guide was to help me construct a trip, figure out a weekend, or just find a place I could get to that evening and play. Logistics.

So my suggestion for the book would be to build on this distinctive element and include additional traveler support, specifically suggested itineraries and a gazetteer.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Where I think their guide is most valuable is to give you a list of courses to check out in a country where you are unfamiliar.  For example, Germany.  They've listed a dozen courses in their top 1000, as follows:

90 pts - Hamburger G & CC and Sporting Club Berlin (Faldo cse)
85 pts - Club zur Vahr (Bremen), Frankfurter, Koln (Refrath cse), and Seddiner See (South cse)
80 pts - Fleesensee, Rethmar, Sporting Club Berlin (Palmer cse), and St. Leon-Rot
75 pts - Gut Larchenhof, Motzener See

I've only seen two of those courses, Hamburger and Bremen, and I would include both in my own book, although Bremen would be on the bubble.  For those who have been to Germany, what courses have they missed, and which are overrated?

Germany - I saw the Nicklaus course at Gut Larchenhof and it is probably the least interesting of all the 8 or 9 Nicklaus courses I've seen... So take from that what you will. The ground just wasn't very inspiring.

I played Club de Cologne which was by Bernard Von Limburger (with recent renovation by Swan) and I enjoyed it immensely. Very reminiscent of a Surrey Heathland with a little less heather. Call it a second tier heathland. Nice old well-to-do traditional club.

[Adam Lawrence]

If Budersand isn't in there, then imo it is the glaring omission from Germany - second best course I've seen in the country after Falkenstein

[BCrosby]

Several have mentioned the strength of Rolex guide with regard to non-US or UK courses. Agreed.

It's real strength, however, is non-golf information when you are travelling to golf destinations with a wife or others who do not play. There is more and more of that sort of family travel. Most other guides are focused tightly on the golfing aspects of various locales. It is a very useful guide in that way, one that is needed.

Bob

   

[Bill_McBride]

This article tells more

http://www.golf365.co.za/features_story/0,17923,9787_6322919,00.html

“A top score of 100 has been awarded to just 15 exceptional courses, each of singular historical and architectural merit, of which there are 7 in the British Isles (Carnoustie, Muirfield, The Old Course at St Andrews, Royal Birkdale, the Championship Course at Portmarnock, the New Course at Sunningdale and the Old Course at Royal County Down), 6 in the United States (Cypress Point, Torrey Pines (South), Augusta National, Pine Valley, Bethpage (Black), and Oakmont), with 2 in Australia (Kingston Heath and Royal Adelaide).”

Sounds like an ideal guide for great ball strikers!

Well, it's produced by a family of great ball strikers.  Kristel's mother, Cecilia Mourgue d'Algue, won more national amateur titles in Europe than anybody can even count.

The list you provided was from the first edition.  There were three changes this time -- Sunningdale and Torrey Pines and Royal Adelaide are down a notch, and Royal Melbourne, NGLA, and Maidstone (!) were elevated to 100 points out of 100.  It's possible they listened to a bit of my feedback in at least one of those instances.

Where I think their guide is most valuable is to give you a list of courses to check out in a country where you are unfamiliar.  For example, Germany.  They've listed a dozen courses in their top 1000, as follows:

90 pts - Hamburger G & CC and Sporting Club Berlin (Faldo cse)
85 pts - Club zur Vahr (Bremen), Frankfurter, Koln (Refrath cse), and Seddiner See (South cse)
80 pts - Fleesensee, Rethmar, Sporting Club Berlin (Palmer cse), and St. Leon-Rot
75 pts - Gut Larchenhof, Motzener See

I've only seen two of those courses, Hamburger and Bremen, and I would include both in my own book, although Bremen would be on the bubble.  For those who have been to Germany, what courses have they missed, and which are overrated?

I do think that when in doubt, they tend to include the Nicklaus and Fazio and Palmer and Player courses over those by less familiar names, which is too bad.  But their U.S. section did include places like Wild Horse and Black Mesa and Bayonne and Wolf Run and Eastward Ho, so they are somewhat inclusive of courses with lesser budgets as long as they're good enough.

Wild Horse and Black Mesa?   That's wonderful, more recognition than those courses get at home from our raters!!

[Ulrich Mayring]

For those who have been to Germany, what courses have they missed, and which are overrated?

Tom, I am not going to comment extensively on this list, it is too hopeless

I've played about 100 courses in Germany, here's an excerpt of my list with some non-Germans sprinkled in, so you have a reference point:



Ulrich

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