Thumbs up: Changes to #18 at TPC Boston

[Dan Herrmann]

I love the changes to #18 at TPC Boston.  The green is quite a bit smaller, it's raised.   Much more risk/reward in play.

I think it's genius - what do you think?

PS - Here's an article describing the changes:  http://www.statesman.com/sports/a-smaller-18th-green-at-tpc-boston-2446780.html

A quote from the article:
Nick Watney said he considered the 18th hole more like a par 4 if the drive was in the fairway, because even though it was a long iron or hybrid for the second shot, missing to the left was still a fairly simple up-and-down for birdie.

"Now, I bet there will be a lot of guys who hit the fairway and lay up, just because it's really difficult to hit it on the green with a 4- or 5-iron," Watney said. "So I think it'll add at least half a shot or three quarters of a shot to the scoring average for the tournament, just because there's going to be guys that go for it, miss it to the left and make a 6, whereas that would rarely happen before.

"I think it's a huge change for that hole," he said. "If a guy is down by one in the last group ... that's a lot more difficult these days."


And another:  http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/8/31/tpc-bostons-18th-i-dont-think-its-a-bad-change-or-a-good-cha.html

[Tim Liddy]

Ryan Palmer just called it "Mickey Mouse" on the Golf Channel. I am guessing he bogeyed it. He mentioned the best play is in the right green-side bunker. Green slopes severely away from the golfer along the left side approach. "Anything from the left side, the golfer will be lucky to get it within 30 feet".

[Jeff_Mingay]

(Ryan Palmer) mentioned the best play is in the right green-side bunker. Green slopes severely away from the golfer along the left side approach. "Anything from the left side, the golfer will be lucky to get it within 30 feet".

I don't quite understand what the issue is? And, I guarantee Tom Watson wouldn't say this.

[Matthew Petersen]

Ryan Palmer just called it "Mickey Mouse" on the Golf Channel. I am guessing he bogeyed it. He mentioned the best play is in the right green-side bunker. Green slopes severely away from the golfer along the left side approach. "Anything from the left side, the golfer will be lucky to get it within 30 feet".

He hasn't played it yet in competition.

This kind of whining just kills me with PGA Tour pros.

[Matthew Rose]

You play golf. For a living. Shut up.

Sorry, I'm bitter..... I just had a paycheck bounce.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It is reminiscent of 13 at Westward Ho!  It is a 442 yard par five.  Getting there is only half the battle. Conquering the green is the other half. Who said that length alone should determine par?  18 at TPC Boston looks wonderful. Hats off the the design team.  Even if the scores are not much higher it will I've the boys pause to think.

[Dan_Callahan]

I think the little bunker on the left looks kind of silly and lost.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think the little bunker on the left looks kind of silly and lost.

Where would you have put the bunker?

[Dan_Callahan]

Not really a question of where. More a case of a bunker that looks out of place. It's tiny and way away from the green. It looks like a lost and lonely little kid over there all by itself. I would have preferred no bunker, a big shaggy bunker like all the rest, or a bunker up against the green.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The expansive chipping areas around the 18th green seem somewhat inconsistent of the rest of the course which generally has rough surrounding the greens.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Not really a question of where. More a case of a bunker that looks out of place. It's tiny and way away from the green. It looks like a lost and lonely little kid over there all by itself. I would have preferred no bunker, a big shaggy bunker like all the rest, or a bunker up against the green.

I have not been there but in the pictures it looks like a place I don't want to be.  Bail our to much to the left and have a long bunker shot.  It does look a little lost, but if I get in it and I would feel a little lost as well.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The pros always have the option of just taking an extra club and blowing it into the grandstands and then going to the drop zone.  The rest of us can't do that.  Unless you have the luck of VdV then you should be okay.

[Dan_Callahan]

I was out there today. The bunker doesn't look quite as bad in person. The style is very different from all the other bunkers out there, but it doesn't look awful. From the left of the green, you can barely see it. It's hidden behind mounds and drops down so deep it almost looks like a pot bunker with white sand. A few other observations:

1) 17 is a very cool and underrated hole.

2) Bubba and Dustin kill the ball. Watched both of them tee off on 14 and hit it miles past everyone else.

3) Rory's swing is perfect.

4) Snedecker's short game is ridiculously good.

5) There are lots of pricks at golf tournaments these days. I've never seen more people trying to talk to the pros like they're best buds, and I've never heard more stupid things yelled out after shots. It sucks and is embarassing.

6) Tiger is hitting the ball really well, but he plays really slow.

7) Sabatini is a jackass.

8 ) KJ Choi might be the nicest guy in the world.

9) When a little kid is dressed head to toe in Rickie Fowler orange, it's kind of cute. When a middle-age man dresses the same way, it's creepy.

10) A cadaver might have a faster heart rate than Jason Dufner. That guy looks like he just woke up.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

http://golfrumors.com/luke-donald-not-a-fan-of-the-tpc-boston-redesign-and-course-designer/

[JSlonis]

I was out there today. The bunker doesn't look quite as bad in person. The style is very different from all the other bunkers out there, but it doesn't look awful. From the left of the green, you can barely see it. It's hidden behind mounds and drops down so deep it almost looks like a pot bunker with white sand. A few other observations:

1) 17 is a very cool and underrated hole.

2) Bubba and Dustin kill the ball. Watched both of them tee off on 14 and hit it miles past everyone else.

3) Rory's swing is perfect.

4) Snedecker's short game is ridiculously good.

5) There are lots of pricks at golf tournaments these days. I've never seen more people trying to talk to the pros like they're best buds, and I've never heard more stupid things yelled out after shots. It sucks and is embarassing.

6) Tiger is hitting the ball really well, but he plays really slow.

7) Sabatini is a jackass.

8 ) KJ Choi might be the nicest guy in the world.

9) When a little kid is dressed head to toe in Rickie Fowler orange, it's kind of cute. When a middle-age man dresses the same way, it's creepy.

10) A cadaver might have a faster heart rate than Jason Dufner. That guy looks like he just woke up.

Dan,

Good observations. Spot on.

[David_Elvins]

Don't know the 18th hole well enough to give it an architectural tick but I thought the variety of shots the pros played on the hole was fantastic viewing.

[Keith Doleshel]

I think the little bunker on the left looks kind of silly and lost.

Today was the first time I really saw much of the golf tournament, and agree about that bunker on the left.  Really doesn't look good on TV anyway.  Maybe better in person, but not impressive looking on the broadcast.

[Keith Doleshel]

I think the little bunker on the left looks kind of silly and lost.

Today was the first time I really saw much of the golf tournament, and agree with you Dan about that bunker on the left.  Really doesn't look good on TV anyway.  Maybe better in person, but not impressive looking on the broadcast.

[Keith Doleshel]

I think the little bunker on the left looks kind of silly and lost.

Today was the first time I really saw much of the golf tournament, and agree with you Dan about that bunker on the left.  Really doesn't look good on TV anyway.  Maybe better in person, but not impressive looking on the broadcast.

[jeffwarne]

I was out there

5) There are lots of pricks at golf tournaments these days. I've never seen more people trying to talk to the pros like they're best buds, and I've never heard more stupid things yelled out after shots. It sucks and is embarassing.

Lots of stupid stuff yelled after EVERY shot these days, not just tee shots.
Even putts.

Augusta has it right-they show clowns the door.

While it could be said that they don't want to discourage fans from attending by curbing the boorish behavior, I would argue they are discouraging real fans from attending or even watching.

[Jason Walker]

I had the oppty to play TPC Boston a few times this year.   Some quick thoughts re: the 18th green:

-the green and surrounds may appear out of character to the remaining holes, but on the ground they're really not.  Perhaps a little more severe internal contours than the other greens, but it works well.

-the surrounds are far more severe than they appear on TV, especially long/left, which is validated by watching the best in the world struggle at times to play the correct shot.  There are other holes that also have large closely mowed surrounds.

-the elevation added to the green makes any shot in that much more difficult

-my member friends all said the course is playing extremely soft, allowing for far more attempts at reaching the green in two than they anticipated.

-the green is obviously smaller, but plays even smaller than the prior version, due to the internal contour.  There aren't really many routine up and downs on the green.

[Matthew Sander]

Regarding Palmer's comments as well as the criticisms from other players - isn't this another instance of competitive players discussing architecture from an entirely different point of view than many of us in the treehouse? It seems that professionals, and often times high level amateurs, comment on architecture as it relates to their games or ability to score. Many of us on the other hand, view interesting architecture as a collection of challenges that may or may not be consistent or "fair" (if this comes across as me branding this point of view as righteous, that is not my intent).

In past years, players took a shot at 18 in two and quite often they reached the large green with little problem - bam, two putt birdie. If they missed the green, they were left with a relatively straight forward up and down for birdie. This was a par 5 where a mediocre or pretty good second shot left a reasonable chance for a 4.

Fast forward to this year and the entire mindset surrounding the hole has changed. Now, the player must execute a high quality shot to keep the ball on the green in two, or risk an extremely difficult up and down. To me, this depicts exactly what should be on the line with a reachable par 5 of modest length. I think Palmer's "Mickey Mouse" pejorative probably has more to do with the way the character of the hole has changed rather than the actual architectural changes. It used to be an easy birdie, now it is a potential birdie with more significant consequences for a less than stellar second shot.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that we probably shouldn't always consider tour players comments on architecture as...well...comments on "architecture". Sure there are instances where players give thoughtful insight to the specific features of a hole or course, but it seems that typically their comments are more related to their expectations of likely outcomes.

So when they say they "like" a course or a hole, are they really saying that they think it is interesting and well done, or are they saying they like it as it relates to their competitive mindset?

[Josh Tarble]

As it somewhat relates to Matthew's points:

If this had been the first year of they played the hole, what would opinions be?  They were used to an easy hole, now its much more challenging.
If they had simply changed it to a par 4 and made no other changes, what would their opinions be?

Like Matthew said, seems to me their expectations used to be easy birdie...and now they have to rethink that strategy.