[David Davis]

[img]As a new member and first time poster here, just a quick intro - I live in The Netherlands and am a member of a links course called de Noordwijkse, as many of you I'm passionate about golf course architecture also rank and review courses and play as much as I can. I've learned just enough to know I don't really know too much but at least I'm learning here. Anyone headed over this way, always welcome to get in touch. Now to the point:

Today as many of you probably did I read the headline regarding Tiger's comment of the rough at Royal Lytham, naturally taken out of context but I'm curious if the point he's made is something that many of Europe's links courses are experiencing with one of the coldest and wettest summers of record over here. What's been your experiences as to the rough on links courses in the last few months if you belong to one or have managed to travel over to Europe to play a few? Our course is bordering on extreme ball losing rough everywhere and I'd be interested to know what clubs are doing to manage the fescue and lushness thereof. I'm not a believer in letting courses get so tough that a 1-2 inch miss of a fairway results in a lost ball. If I can figure out how to post photos I'll post a couple for your feedback and thoughts. Ok maybe this image is viewable on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151222929297415&set=a.470942257414.256761.573297414&type=1&theater

Don't get me wrong the rough is beautiful if your not in it as in this photo:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151223072567415&set=a.470942257414.256761.573297414&type=1&theater

If these aren't visable my apologies just trying to learn how to work with the system here.

Look forward to your thoughts. David

[David_Tepper]

David Davis -

Welcome to our congenial little group! I do hope to visit the links courses of Holland day.

There is a discussion of the healthy fescue growth this summer season in GB&I and elsewhere in Northern Europe already active here.

Here is a link: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52830.0.html

There is also mention of fescue growth on the two active threads discussing the new Trump Scotland course.

DT 

[David Davis]

DT, thanks for the welcome and pointing out the other thread. A case of ships in the night, well if you include me getting distracted for a couple hours after starting the post. That little time-out and start over was clearly a message for me to check the threads one last time for Heavy Rough.

[Jon Wiggett]

The problem with the other thread is no superintendants have chimed in to discuss rough management - so it's turned more into a debate about whether or not rough should be that high or thick. It would be helpful if someone who works in the field could post on here going into detail about how this issue is addressed.

Brian,

from the point of view of one Head Greenkeeper. It is difficult to do anything else other than maintain the cutting plan the same in any year. If it is wet like this year then the rough is thick. If it is dry then the rough is sparse. The idea a lot of non greenkeepers have is that when the rough is thick then you need to cut it down. The problem with this is two fold:

1. It is a massive operation to cut down large areas of long rough on an occasional basis especially during wet conditions when you cannot dry it for hay.

2. Generally if the rough is growing thicker and faster then the rest of the course is as well leaving you with less time to cut the rough.

Hope this help clarify why rough is not dealt with. Of course there are two solutions that spring to mind. You can either graze the roughs with sheep or a group of members might even volunteer to cut the rough

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

What if we have two or three wet summers in a row like was the case before 2010?  The rough never properly dies back and then it grows in even worse the following summer if no hot weather is about.  Surely it makes sense to deal with rough at least on a yearly basis even if it is a pain to cope with?

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Jon's right. If you don't get the clippings off, they are going to rot down, make the soil more fertile, and thus your rough will come back thicker and more meadowy than ever. The same problem arises when, on a new project, people sow the rough areas too densely in order to get a nice looking stand for opening day. Then you have to thin it out - which is a difficult, time consuming process. And perhaps the single biggest problem - I'm sure this was an issue at Trump - is irrigation throw falling onto rough areas that ideally shouldn't get any additional water. On a windy site, it's unavoidable. But it means the thickest rough is right next to the play areas - not good.

[David Davis]

Jon

Thanks for your comments. Brian has touched on my question exactly. In my experience it seems that UK & Irish courses do a great job of managing this rough so the dense thicker green stuff is not there. If you take a look at my photo you will see what I mean. I don't mind the rough being a bit longer like I've experienced it often in the UK and Ireland but once it all becomes so thick and lush that the members starts playing it like a water hazard to save time and speed up rounds that's a bit drastic isn't it?

Cheers David

[Mike Policano]

David,

I played Noordwijkse last month and loved it. It is on my must play again list. I thought that width of the fairways and the maintenance of the first cut made for a very playable round. I did note that the twosome we played through spent a lot of time in the hay but they were spraying balls around.

Royal Hague also had enough fairway width to make for a very pleasurable round. We did play one notable Dutch course that had narrow fairways, virtually no first cut and crazy high and thick hay. I only missed two fairways but our playing partners were often in the hay. It wasn't fun looking for golf balls hole after hole. The narrow fairways also greatly reduced the strategic options that were set up by great greensites.

All in all, golf in The Netherlands was great and I look forward to returning.

Cheers, Mike

[David Davis]

Mike,

Great to hear! Did you play medal or white tees? If you don't miss fairways that always helps, so your group didn't lose any balls? That's some solid playing for guests. May I ask your hcp out of curiosity? Did anyone break 80? I have a going bet with guests which I've never lost. Break 80 from the tips on your first go regardless of your hcp and all the drinks are on me. Course if it's one of the 5 nearly wind-still days we have in a year then I might not make the bet with a +hcper.

You've made me really curious as to which course had narrow fairways and deep hay. The only links course left over is Kennemer but that one is the most generous of the three and by far the easiest in most of our opinions. You can PM me if you don't want to mention it.

I'm curious about the grass question and opinion of what educated guests think of our club because we are heading into some big changes in the coming couple years including an amazing new first hole, moving the driving range and practice facilities close to the club house and changing a couple other holes among other things. I've just been asked to join the course committee to help oversee this process which I'm very excited about so I appreciate all the feedback.

If you plan to make it back, please do get in touch. Cheers, David

[Adam Lawrence]

I love Noordwijk, but I have it behind Royal Hague (top) and Kennemer in my list of the top Dutch links. The new first hole will make a real difference to the course. David, you imply that planning permission has either been granted, or soon will...that's news to me. Elucidate please!

[Dan Herrmann]

Our head greenkeeper is known to lament that keeping the fescue roughs in good order is the most challenging part of his job.  Our course is in the boondocks, and we get a fair amount of thistle and weed seed from neighboring meadows through the air, and it's just plain tough to maintain.

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