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Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Are signature holes a good thing?
« on: June 02, 2012, 03:21:12 PM »
Got to play Briarwood in Chicago yesterday.   Great course, much better than expected.

However, if you ask anyone about the course, every response with start with the 18th hole, a conversial par 4 with a tree 30 yards in front of the green.

This got me to thinking--  Is having a signature hole a good thing or does it tend to overshadow the architecture?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 03:23:59 PM by Mark Johnson »

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 07:57:46 PM »
a little surprised no responses yet??? ... Does ANGC reduce itself effectively to the view over the Hogan bridge to the 12th green in the misty morning? Of course not! ...
But if you are an advertiser / marketer for a course and given limited print space, what do you do?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2012, 08:02:02 PM »
Every course should have 18 signature holes...what's the thread about again?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2012, 08:21:43 PM »
Ronald Montesano writes:
Every course should have 18 signature holes...what's the thread about again?

Very little I'd disagree with more.

Any course I ever played that has advertised itself as 18 signature holes has been crap. I much prefer a good flow than holes that stand alone on their own. Architects trying to create signature holes has resulted in some really bad golf, forcing golfers to walk back to tees, long hikes between holes, forcing holes to all play downhill, etc...

If marketers fine a signature hole or two after the course is created, fine. but I hate when architects try to create signature holes.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Today, [the TPC] is harder to defend because it's no longer a once-in-a-lifetime proposition, and the progression of bastardized imitations it has fostered has done little to advance modern golf architecture, while undermining the originality of the TPC itself.
 --Tom Doak

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2012, 08:24:42 PM »
Dan,

You need to take a course in "Ron." Where did I mention "advertise" signature holes?

If you play a Doak, Ross, Coore, Travis, et al., you know that each and every hole is defined by their signature.

Do you still disagree with what I wrote?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 08:42:40 PM »
Ronald Montesano writes:
You need to take a course in "Ron." Where did I mention "advertise" signature holes?

Maybe we need a definition of signature holes. I have always assumed it means the hole the marketers use to advertise the course. It's a hole that photographs well. I'm not sure what you mean when you say signature hole.

If you play a Doak, Ross, Coore, Travis, et al., you know that each and every hole is defined by their signature.

What does this mean?  I've seen Tom's signature and I've never seen a hole that has any resemblance to his signature. What do you mean defined?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Anyone who isn't confused really doesn't understand the situation.
 --Edward R. Murrow

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 11:35:27 PM »
This course has 18 signature holes.



At least per my definition.

 :)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2012, 01:09:08 AM »
No

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2012, 09:04:16 AM »
Perhaps the third time is the charm...perhaps metaphor or some other literary trick served only to cloud the meaning...

Signature holes do have two interpretations. The lesser, according to me, would be the one to which marketing machines subscribe. We need to tell our potential clients which hole is the best, for whatever reason. They should crave the opportunity to play it and, if necessary, anticipation of it will obscure the mediocrity of the remaining holes.

The greater interpretation, according to me, is the signature or stamp or seal of approval of the architect. This greater interpretation is made by those wise or educated in golf course architecture (the minimum would be involvement in a site like this one.) It allows you to differentiate between a Rulewich and a Travis, a Finger and a Ross, a Fazio and a MacKenzie.

To be sure, at least I (and I suspect others) could be fooled by someone with enough zeal to fool us, into thinking that one is another, or vice-versa. That's not the point, but I congratulate you ahead of time.

The point is this: could you have 18 RTJSR, Muirhead, or Hills signature holes on a course? I say not, as they and others tended toward the flamboyant and too much flamboyancy eliminates the uniqueness of one signature hole that the marketers crave.

In contrast, a more subtle, nuanced architect will achieve greater balance, even when a portion of the land lends itself to greater or lesser success. Ergo, an S&N architect arrives at 18 signature holes whereas a flamboyant one cannot and will not.

The template brigade would be left out of this equation, as its purpose (Banks, Raynor, MacDonald) was to replicate tried-and-true equations over varying pieces of land.

Now I'm interested to read responses to this diatribe.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2012, 10:13:47 AM »
Ron,

i agree with what you are saying.

For me, there needs to be balance in an excellent golf course.  No one hole should completely overpower the rest.

I think that is the case at Briarwood, is that noone really talks much about the first 17 because of the polarizing nature of 18.   Actually I think it is exacerated at Briarwood because the most polarizing hole is also the last one. 

I think the same can be true of Bandon trails to an extent.   14 there is so polarizing that it prevent many people from having a good discussion on the course.   

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2012, 10:28:56 AM »
Definition of the term "signature hole" is definitely the key.  From my experience, it is the hole that photographs the best, and is therefore featured in the course's advertising.

Or, we could assign the question to a committee.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,139.msg1197787.html#msg1197787
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 12:11:29 PM by Carl Johnson »

TEPaul

Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2012, 12:00:25 PM »
Mark:

I wouldn't say the use of the term signature holes is a good thing or a bad thing, but I have always felt it is an unnecessary thing.

Jeff Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2012, 01:48:34 PM »
I don't mind signature holes but feel that if a hole is pre-determined to be a course's signature hole that I imagine it might feel forced and perhaps over the top. If a course is laid out naturally and a hole happens to become that course's signature hole I think that makes more sense.

So bad it's good!

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2012, 06:20:08 PM »
for me, if you are only talking about one hole on the course-- good or bad, then the architecture probably hasn't done his job.

For me, the success of a golf course is much more than the sum of its holes, but the overall challenge and decisions it forces.  For something to break up the continuity of this is rarely a good thing.


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 06:20:41 PM »
Good thing in the commercial world of advertising, promoting, marketing to get the general public to come and play the course, naturally its a big yes. If you are not bothered people come and $$$$ are not important then let the people discover it for themselves as a hidden gem and let 0.01% of people work out the architecture for themselves.

Promoting a new product you need something to hang your hat on, so a special hole will draw the crowd. Every course has a best hole so photograph and promote your best eye candy....
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2012, 06:36:28 PM »
for me, if you are only talking about one hole on the course-- good or bad, then the architecture probably hasn't done his job.

For me, the success of a golf course is much more than the sum of its holes, but the overall challenge and decisions it forces.  For something to break up the continuity of this is rarely a good thing.


Mark:

That's always been my take, too.

Sometimes they just happen, whether you want them to or not.  For example, the 11th and 13th at Pacific Dunes are pretty much the only holes you see photos of from that course, even though we all would agree there are some other holes as good or better than those two on the course.  But you almost NEVER see a picture of the short par-4 sixth, because it plays at the wrong angle to get the right light for a really great picture -- and, of course, it's not right on the ocean, and the resort is always going to promote the oceanfront holes.  It's the same for Old Mac -- all the pictures are of #7.

I've been a bit disturbed that nearly all anyone has seen of Streamsong so far is our par-3 hole over the pond, the seventh.  It probably will become the signature hole of that course, because it's so dramatic and so unlike Florida -- just like the ninth at Yale is the only hole anybody talks about there, it doesn't mean it's the only really good hole.  Fortunately, though, Streamsong does have a bunch of other photogenic holes, and I'll be very happy when a few more of them start to get out there in the public eye.

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 06:43:55 PM »
If "signature hole" is part of the designer's manifest, as in "make sure there's a signature hole," then no.

If, however, a course winds up with an iconic hole, a la ANGC 12, TPC Sawgrass 17, TOC 17, CPC 16, how can that be bad?  The rub, I don't think the architect gets to decide that a hole is an icon.  The public has to ultimately care enough about the course to elevate a hole on the course to icon status.  No amount of glossy ink can do that alone.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2012, 07:39:54 AM »
for me, if you are only talking about one hole on the course-- good or bad, then the architecture probably hasn't done his job.

For me, the success of a golf course is much more than the sum of its holes, but the overall challenge and decisions it forces.  For something to break up the continuity of this is rarely a good thing.

Mark,

The "signature" hole doesn't have to break up the continuity, it may just be the best of the bunch.

# 12 at GCGC  was identified as the "signature" hole, probably because of it's accentuated features which incorporated the essence of the design of the entire course.

The aerial of that hole, which I'm hoping David Moriarty will post, says it all.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2012, 07:48:50 AM »
Tom Doak,

"Water", seems to have great appeal when it comes to photos of golf holes.

Perhaps it's the contrast with the land or just the innate appeal of water, but many or most of the photos displaying or advertising a course seem to include water.

# 11 and # 13 at Pacific Dunes are great, dramatic holes fraught with danger, hence they're a natural if you had to choose holes to promote the entire golf course.

A signature hole doesn't disparage the other holes, it compliments them IF the signature hole is architecturally representative of the remaining 17 holes.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are signature holes a good thing?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2012, 08:53:56 AM »
No, Mark, they are a Marketing thing, nothing less nothing more.  However, a good way of identifying a gca-copasetic playing partner at golf and/or apres golf is how rarely he or she uses the words "signature hole."
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

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