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Lou Duran

Do better courses produce better play?
« on: December 06, 2001, 12:24:10 PM »
In the "Placement of Hazards" chapter in THE LINKS, Robert Hunter writes: "Good play is, on the whole, the product of good courses" (pg. 82).   Based on my own experience, I tend to agree.  In an earlier thread regarding which state had the best golf courses, the GCA concensus was that NY won easily in this category, but that Texas produced the best players.  In fact, Texas seemed to be tought of as devoid of quality golf (I believe that somone opined that the best TX course could not break into NJ's top 15).  So is Hunter right or is our definition of what makes a course good somewhat off?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2001, 12:55:43 PM »
From my own personal experience I would agree with Hunter. I have played some of my best golf on golf courses that are continually stimulating, requiring strategic thinking and providing opportunities for exhilirating shots -- a great golf course keeps you focused and its difficult to stay focused on a less then stimulating course.

But bringing the best out of an individual golfer and producing great golfers are two different things. I don't think there is any relationship between great golf courses molding great champions or the opposite, poor courses producing poor golfers. Many Texas's greatest golfers learned the game upon dog tracks. But I would guess Hogan, Nelson and Trevino best rounds may have been played over courses outside the state of Texas -- Its difficult to get that picture of Hogan on the 18th at Merion out of my mind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2001, 01:15:47 PM »
Tom,

In fairness to Texas golf courses, the USGA and PGA rarely have seen fit to hold the majors here, and for that matter, hold them most often in the midwest/northeast.  Thus, other than his numerous wins at Colonial, yes we picture him somewhere in the northeast.....

On a personal level, I do find historic, or otherwise hard to get on courses stimulating, and often play better there.  Perhaps its because I was anticipating the event, and made special time to do it.  Perhaps the fact that I'm not trying to embarrass myself and really concentrate may have something to do with it as well.  I notice my son plays better at Great Soutwest from day to day with strangers than with Dad, probably for similar reasons.

Who knows what random motivation or distractions influence a round on any day - ie the fight with the wife, sick kids, etc. for both us and the tour pros.  We once discussed whether great courses made great champions here, and there are certainly many examples to say it don't make no difference at that level.

By the same token, the theory on the rise of the Europeans was that they played "dog tracks", and were thus more accustomed to inventing shots, unfair bounces, etc.  Probably the same with the Texas golfers of fifty years ago.  So there may be an opposite correlation as well.

In general, I think the statement is a gross generalization, difficult to prove.  I have seen most architects of the Golden Age say similar things.  The good Doctor thought hazards "stimulated" better play, etc.  Could this be their version of somewhat self serving marketing, as none of them wanted to build an average course either?  Perhaps they wanted to stimulate their customers to "build one better than the last one."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2001, 01:29:50 PM »
Jeff
Do you think your son would play better at Cypress Point or Great Southwest? And if he would play better at CPC would it be due to its history and exclusiveness?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2001, 01:29:59 PM »
This all depends on how you interpret what Hunter said.  If you take it, as Tom has, to mean how one is able to play on the day, then I would agree.  Good courses CAN elicit good play from the reasonably accomplished golfer.  If, however, you take it to mean the development of one's ability to play, to a very high level, I would disagree.

From my experience and observation they key to creating a real player is allowing him or her to play, as much as possible, as soon as he or she is able to hold and swing a club.  It is also important to allow that person to learn to swing freely, without fear of the consequences.

"Medicore" courses have two substantial advantages over "great" courses in producing great golfers.  For one, they are more likely to be available for play, by a wider range of people.  The exclusivity of most of the great clubs makes it extremely unlikely that their junior golfers will produce a champion, just on numbers alone.  Seondly, "medicore" courses are more conducive to opening he shoulders and PLAYING, which is what most kids want to do and need to do.  Just imagine trying to motivate a 7-year old golfer by having him play Pine Valley or Carnoustie every day of the summer.  Just imagine the fear-doiminated restricted swing her or she might have.

The great, or nearly great golfers that came from truly great or nearly great courses is a very small list (pre-1920 golfers do not count!).  Nicklaus.......hmmm......must be somebody else.......Monty?.......no, he played most of his junior golf at Ilkley.........

In my observation of the UK golfing scene throughout the 90's I cannot think of one really great player that came out of any of the courses that we discuss on this site.  In Scotland they came from East Kilbride, rather than Prestwick; Wick rather than Dornoch; Inverallochy rather than Royal Aberdeen; etc.  Faldo, Westwood, Casey, etc.--guys like this don't come from St. Georges Hill or Ganton or Rye.

Lou, please don't promote better golf courses in Texas.  We need youse guys for future Ryder Cup teams!

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Hervochon

Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2001, 01:48:25 PM »
I agree that good courses produce good golf, and I would also tend to think NJ's top 15 kill Texas top 15 (even though Texas is like 30 times the size of NJ).  The only reason why the great golfers come from Texas?  B/c their golf season is 12 months and ours is 8, maybe.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2001, 06:13:06 PM »
 "Do better courses produce better play?"

   'Play' can be variably defined.

   Great courses let my imagination play but the scoring generally suffers from unwise momentous heroic decisions.  Lay up!? at a course I may only play once in my life?  

Better play is inspiring; better score is satisfying.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

kilfara

Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2001, 04:10:40 AM »
I don't think architecture has anything to do with the absolute quality of play. Good and bad shots can and will be struck on any type of course with equal frequency. What better courses *will* do is provide golfers with a better and more interesting test, so that a good shot on a great course will be made to look relatively better (and a bad shot relatively worse) than it will on a lesser course. The quality of chip shot which puts your ball within three feet of the pin on a flat Texas course might produce a shot which only gets to within 20 feet from the bottom of a swale at Dornoch or Pinehurst No. 2...but the two shots wouldn't be any different in absolute quality.

I think you should be careful to distinguish between the course and the situation. Tom MacWood mentions Hogan's 1-iron at Merion, but I think that major championship pressure and the innate difficulty of hitting a 1-iron underpin the shot's true quality. Although the setting helped make the shot great (in a way that all could see), the setting didn't make Hogan hit a great shot. Also, one has to be careful in generalizing from anecdotal evidence - no scientist or attorney could begin to get away with constructing a case based upon one or two circumstantial examples, and yet sports fans tend to do it all the time (e.g. "Derek Jeter is a great defensive shortstop - you should have seen the play I saw him make the other day!"). I'm tempted to showcase the number of great shots which were hit at the Belfry in the Ryder Cups of 1987 and 1993, but I'd be falling into my own trap if I did so.

If you want to draw any conclusions about the type of courses which great golfers grow up playing, I'd be inclined to analyze the trends and say that young golfers who grow up mastering relatively simple shots on relatively simple courses are the ones who are most capable of adapting to the difficulties which eventually await them at the major championships. When you have a lifetime of experience which tells you that you can hit 3-irons to 20 feet or chip shots to within tap-in range, even if most of it comes on relatively simple courses, the challenge of a difficult course won't seem as challenging. This theory of mine is drawn from the inverse of my own experience: I grew up playing at a fairly difficult course. I never managed to break par on it; it took me until I was in my late teens before I made more than three birdies in one round. When I then played an easy course, I never had the confidence which told me I could make lots of birdies or "go low", so I didn't - I never broke par anywhere until I was a junior in college, even though my ability level and my handicap (2.4 at its lowest, a number at which I now scratch my head, knowing it was mostly built upon high course/slope ratings) told me I should have done so much earlier.

Cheers,
Darren
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2001, 05:16:32 AM »
Lou,

I am not certain we agreed on the consensus that NY had the best golf courses.  I think that a very compelling argument was made for Michigan.  It would lose to NY on the top ten but from a depth of greatness (Number of courses that would make a top 500 list), variety of architects, public and private, and style of architecture standpoints, Michigan easily defeats New York.

As for great courses making great golfers, I do not think so.  Tiger Woods certainly did not learn on a great course.  David Duval's father was not the Head Professional at Seminole.  Lee Trevino and Vijay Singh learned on dog tracks.  I think that great golfers are conceived out of minds that allow extreme focus and sheer determination.  More so, people who are willing to practice, practice, practice.  On an individual level, I find that score best on easy courses and the harder the course is, the higher my score goes.  IMHO, great courses simply make moments of greatness more memorable.  

For example, the only up and down I talk about this year is the one I made from 60 yards out to par 18 the week after the US Open was played at Southern Hills.  Obviously, this was very memorable to me since it was the same pin as played on Sunday and if Cink, Goosen or Brooks could have gotten up and down, they would have won the Open.  I made many up and downs at mediocre courses and many were harder than the one I made at Southern Hills, but the greatness of the course and situation simply makes that one more memorable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2001, 09:48:00 AM »
I think Darren and David are on to it.  If you are looking for better play, it is only caused by practice.  The question should be, which courses have the best practice facilities, and who uses them the most. Hogan, Trevino, Vijay and Tiger are (were) known to practice obsessively.  After you acquire the shots, then take them to great golf courses and learn how to think around them.  Otherwise, it is futile.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JohnV

Re: Do better courses produce better play?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2001, 01:14:37 PM »
In 1993, I left Rock Creek Country Club and became a member at Pumpkin Ridge Golf Club, which is like going from Motel 6 to the Four Seasons.  Over the next year, my handicap fell from a 10 to a 5 and over the next few years down as low as a 2.  I really didn't play more and even though the practice facilities were better, I didn't use them that much.  I just had to learn to hit better shots in order to play the course.  Also, because the courses were better, I focused better and enjoyed the game more.  I think that the challange of a good course made me a better player.

A couple of other reasons that people can be better players are with other good players around, you have to get better to survive and better courses usually get better pros who can teach better.  For example, we had 2 pros ranked in Golf Magazines listing of best teaching pros as Pumpkin Ridge.  Rock Creek's pro was a nice guy, but was so young he didn't have the experience to be a great teacher.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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