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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Interesting column in Lorne Smith's Fine Golf newsletter:

http://www.finegolf.co.uk/2012/02/original-architects/
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 03:52:24 PM by David_Tepper »

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

Thanks for the link.

"Fine Golf" has a great attitude - particularly their desire to keep the preachings of Jim Arthur and fine turf alive.


Patrick_Mucci

David,

As long as the original routing is retained you have to keep the original architect's name on the marquee

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

As long as the original routing is retained you have to keep the original architect's name on the marquee

Pat,

I would disagree, and I use Torrey Pines South as exhibit A.  As far as I know, and I could be mistaken, but the routing is the same as was originally done by William Bell.  But to call that a "Bell" course now would be a gross mis-characterization....IMO!!

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
This is a very interesting question in that it seems to ask what exactly makes it an ongoing statement of an architect's work as opposed to something else. Pat stated that the routing is the important factor, but what if significant amounts of the strategic elements and shaping was changed within that routing - can it still be said to be the achitect's "work" at that point. 

What exactly should be defined as the architect's work, and therefore lead to an appropriate attribution:

The routing and dirt that was actually moved through shaping and such?
-or-
The sequence of strategic/tactical questions that the architect wanted to ask golfer's of different abilities?

As I started thinking about this I thought that the question of renovation vs. restoration is associated with this distinction. Should an architect's consultations to an established course err on the side of the original architect's "dirt" or the original intent of strategic/tactical questions. And if the latter better preserves the intent than the prior is it not more sympathetic to the original architect in some ways.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

As long as the original routing is retained you have to keep the original architect's name on the marquee

What about courses that are routed by one architect, then completed by someone else? Secession and Tidewater fall into that category.

Secession was routed by Pete Dye, then completed by Bruce Devlin. Devlin's name is on the course.
Tidewater was routed by Rees Jones, then completed by Ken Tomlinson. Tomlinson's name is on the course.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Patrick_Mucci

Michael,

That's a separate issue often associated with the relationship between the owner and the Vendor/architect.

EASTHAMPTON ?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ideally, all work done should be credited to the proper person.  For the sake of magazines and articles etc I think the router of the course should be mentioned and any other major works performed.  Of course that is a bit vague and intentionally so because major work is a relative term.  To illustrate, Sunny Old should correctly be labelled a Park Jr/Colt course because Park Jr's routing is still intact, however, Colt did major work.  If you go up to Notts, I think Tom Williamson should get a mention (maybe not half, but not far off) in the design because enough of Park Jr's course is altered to have a significantly different course.  Sometimes, there are ton of archies involved who have little bits here and there which add up to halfish the design and one archie responsible for the other half.  I would probably label it as such.  Burnham & Berrow for instance would be Colt and several significant contributions from other archies.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think a course needs to show the general style and shot values that an architect intended in order to still be regarded as been from that GCA. In the case of Wentworth as far as I am aware the playing corridors are the same but greens have been moved as well as bunkers and so much altered that I do not believe it bears any relevance to that which Colt intended. Sandmoor and Moortown certainly are still true to the original GCA's intention and style overall to still be regarded as being from him.

The article is well written and worth reading.

Jon

David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ideally, all work done should be credited to the proper person.  For the sake of magazines and articles etc I think the router of the course should be mentioned and any other major works performed. 

I totally agree. If more than one person has done major work, can't we call it a collaboration? I don't think people need to work on a project at the same time (a la Nicklaus and Doak at Sebonack) to call it a collaboration. So like Pat said, if the routing is intact I believe the router must be mentioned. And if any major work has been done since, that work too must be credited. I know "major work" is difficult to define, but for starters I would say it's not simply lengthening a hole, re-shaping or moving a bunker, or planting trees. Major to me would be re-designing a green complex, shifting a tee for a totally different angle of play, or adding a bunker or bunkers that totally change the playing characteristics of a hole.

I guess the litmus test is Augusta National. Can't we still call it a MacKenzie? Or do we have to call it a MacKenzie/Trent Jones/Nelson/Fazio (and whoever else may have touched it at one point)?

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

As long as the original routing is retained you have to keep the original architect's name on the marquee

Bingo, the routing is the most important.  Greens next. 

But the article does higlight some of the nonsense that is spouted to justify changes.  As if the "shot values" to the current 12th at Wentworth West have any similarity to the original.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
How much MacKenzie/Jones is left at Augusta National?

Melvyn Morrow


An interesting question and one that is not that easy to answer.

Unless the course is moved totally from the original site, it is hard to ignore the original designers. Furthermore you have the dilemma that many of the original courses were in fact 9 Holes than the St Andrews standard 18.

Therefore, two problems confront the clubs, historians or golfers interested it the geniality of the course. Should the accreditation be place with the original designer of 9 or shared with the designer who revised and created the 18.
My outlook being interested in the golfing history is straightforward in that all designers should be named and work specified, in that way we have a pure linage of the course. Whether that is important or irrelevant to some, at least the club will have its own history for its Members and posterity.

My reasons for this approach being that all get a credit for their involvement. However, more importantly it creates a living record of the course and its changes, hopefully stating and explaining as to when, why and by whom. The reason this is necessary is due to the amount of existing design, work or features created by the original designer(s) and still in existence, be it the hazards or routing. A classic example and for the purpose of this exercise, I am using Prestwick GC as the model instead of TOC (which still has not just the footprint but in effect the whole design more or less intact from the works between 1850-1900 – exclude a handful of bunkers). Prestwick was a 12 Hole course but, when developed into an 18 Hole course still retained 7 Greens from the original design, not to mention hazards, so it is only fair to name the designers and their involvement.

I fear the accreditation of the routing/design is frowned upon by many design houses today, for the simple fact that they wish it to be known by the Principal’s name rather than naming the unknown individual(s) or their face(s). I fear this is a receipt for confusion and perhaps an indictment of the modern houses showing it’s just a business rather than a vocation.  Pity because many a good design has come about IMHO thanks to the dedication and interest of the individuals concerned. Perhaps some are really trying to get back to basics leading with Nature and the natural.

Whatever, I hope the clubs realise that their list of designers and changes are for many far more important than some golfing magazines rankings/listings. I also hope that the big named golfing houses get their own house in order to offer this rather simple and to many important service to their customers – the golfers.
 
Many would be surprised to find just what is left of the original designs or some of its features from Greens to hazards. Although if we continue with the modern practice of stripping the land back to the bedrock before rebuilding then much will be destroyed. Keyhole surgery works well for the medical consultants, perhaps one day the same may be applies to our old and treasured golf courses, that is, if the golfing authorities approve.

To coin a phrase from a popular TV series ‘The truth is out there’. We just need to open our eyes and look for it.

Melvyn
     

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why divorce from the original GCA if the course is still there?  The most recent iteration is always subservient to the first, it seems to me.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Unfortunately here in the UK a lot of clubs simply don't know who has been involved in the laying out of the original course and its subsequent development. While an original routing may still be in place the play of that routing may have been considerably modified by the planting of trees. We can all point to examples of holes which were clearly designed to be played in a certain way which is now impossible because of the subsequent planting of trees.

I seem to recall someone saying that Ganton had had as many different architects involved as there are holes on the course.

Now, here's a conundrum. Alwoodley is often said to be by Colt and MacKenzie. But Colt's visit, documented by Colt, was to MacKenzie, to see and discuss his plans. He probably helped Mac make his mind up about alternatives. Fowler visited later and wrote a commentary in a Yorkshire newspaper explaining what changes should be made. They were not made. But what of Toogood of Ikley? He was the man commissioned by the club to lay out the course. It's there in the club minutes and MacKenzie (who was Hon Sec) gets no mention. Did Toogood simply carry out work according to MacKenzie's instructions, or how much input did he have? We don't know, but the course was ready for club competitions to be held only a few months after the club was founded.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,

I think one thing that you can say is that the over all impression that the course gives is very much in the style of MacKenzie and so I would doubt there would be any dispute as to the main GCA in that case. Sandmoor and Moortown are slightly different as the new holes are very different in style and so you could argue it was the work of several different GCAs.

Having said all that is it really so important to be able to say this course is such and such a GCA and are courses that have multiple GCAs worse? I for one would say if the sum of the whole course makes for an enjoyable game then the course is good.

Jon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
It's a complicated question for which most people demand a simple answer.  Simple answers are bound to distort, most of the time.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bound to distort, most of the time.

Isn't that the mission statement of the armchair archie hobbyists here? 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Patrick_Mucci



This is a very interesting question in that it seems to ask what exactly makes it an ongoing statement of an architect's work as opposed to something else. Pat stated that the routing is the important factor, but what if significant amounts of the strategic elements and shaping was changed within that routing - can it still be said to be the achitect's "work" at that point.

In the last 50 years can you cite five examples where that's been done ?
 

What exactly should be defined as the architect's work, and therefore lead to an appropriate attribution:

The routing and dirt that was actually moved through shaping and such?
-or-
The sequence of strategic/tactical questions that the architect wanted to ask golfer's of different abilities?

If the routing remains the same, how different can the strategic/tactical play be ?


As I started thinking about this I thought that the question of renovation vs. restoration is associated with this distinction. Should an architect's consultations to an established course err on the side of the original architect's "dirt" or the original intent of strategic/tactical questions.

How would the consulting architect KNOW what the original architect's "intent" was ?


And if the latter better preserves the intent than the prior is it not more sympathetic to the original architect in some ways.

Could you explain how the original architect didn't understand his own intent ?

Thanks
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« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 11:51:56 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

How much MacKenzie/Jones is left at Augusta National?

Almost all of it with a few exceptions like # 7, #10 and # 16.

Don't confuse narrowed fairway width and back tees with substantive architectural change.


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Patrick

But nearly all of the green contours are now different at Augusta.  That is still substantive architectural change, even if it's not a routing change.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Patrick,

I noticed you never answered my question in Reply #3.  I am genuinely interested to hear your opinion on TPS in light of the work that was done out there.  Same routing, but completely different bunkering, green complexes, etc.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Patrick

But nearly all of the green contours are now different at Augusta.  That is still substantive architectural change, even if it's not a routing change.

There's a thread working on this very topic.  Just looking at the first three holes, there was a lot of Mac taken out of the course in the early years.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0


This is a very interesting question in that it seems to ask what exactly makes it an ongoing statement of an architect's work as opposed to something else. Pat stated that the routing is the important factor, but what if significant amounts of the strategic elements and shaping was changed within that routing - can it still be said to be the achitect's "work" at that point.

In the last 50 years can you cite five examples where that's been done ?
 

Not sure of 5 but two that come to mind would be Congressional - I'm sure that Emmett did not conceive of any strategy involving aerial shots to quadrant greens - and Harbor Town which I believe Dye built over a pre-routed course/plan - I would say that either of these courses are not attributable to either of the architects that did the routing (although shared attribution is probably warranted)

What exactly should be defined as the architect's work, and therefore lead to an appropriate attribution:

The routing and dirt that was actually moved through shaping and such?
-or-
The sequence of strategic/tactical questions that the architect wanted to ask golfer's of different abilities?

If the routing remains the same, how different can the strategic/tactical play be ?


See above - while routing may dictate the shape of the field of play the strategies of which side of the fairway may or may not be preferable is very much determined by the shaping of the greens. If someone like Doak had been hired to rebuild the greens at Congressional how different would/could the strategies be within the same basic routing when compared to the current rebuild?

As I started thinking about this I thought that the question of renovation vs. restoration is associated with this distinction. Should an architect's consultations to an established course err on the side of the original architect's "dirt" or the original intent of strategic/tactical questions.

How would the consulting architect KNOW what the original architect's "intent" was ?



This would be up for interpretation but having read many threads over the years here many regular posters seem to believe that this is discernable if in fact it was not stated outright

And if the latter better preserves the intent than the prior is it not more sympathetic to the original architect in some ways.

Could you explain how the original architect didn't understand his own intent ?

I clearly did not make this part clear in my original post - I meant to posit a situation where technology or agronomy made a hole play differently than designed and where a "restoration" would not be able to restore the intent of the hole.

This was my first Pat Mucci colored response to one of my posts. I hope that I did not embarrass myself with my responses. I am a strong believer that an interesting course should ask the player to solve a series of questions and it is painful when I see good questions neutered by technology or ground that's maintained too softly. If a renovation or "restovation" as I remember Lester George referring to it can restate the questions as intended I think that's for the good.


Thanks
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