17 at Pebble

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The history of great moment son this hole says no. I am one who thinks the green complex is too small for the shot you hit in there. But clearly the pros can do it. So I stand corrected. It is only a great hole for ams from in front of the road or closer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It is on a great piece of land and open to the elements.
It is rich in history and is the penultimate hole of one of the best golf courses in the world.

And yet I think it is overhyped architecturally.

Am I the only one who thinks it is poorly designed and there is one of the best holes in the world waiting to be built.
YES, you and the other escapees from Happydale Farms.

One would think that minimalists would love the hole.

But, I'm anxious to hear your thoughts/ideas, what would you do to redesign the hole ?

[Ed Oden]

One thing I've always found deceptive about #17 can be seen from the images Mike Sweeney posted earlier.  The spit of land circled in red juts out well short of the green...



But from the tee, it leaves the impression that there is more room left of the green than in reality exists...

[Ed Oden]

Kris, the demise of the imitation dunes at Pebble has been discussed in several old threads.  As I understand it, the problems were largely twofold.  First, unlike Cypress just down the road, there is no natural sand at Pebble.  Rather, the course is built on top of a rock base.  So sand that blows away is gone and has to be replaced.  Second, grass grows so easily at Pebble that it is very difficult to keep it from overtaking sandy areas.  Too bad, because the look is spectacular.

[Tim Bert]

I don't LOVE the hole, but I think it is actually my favorite of the par 3s at Pebble. I don't care for the shape of the front bunker and I'd love for the green to be widened just enough so that there isn't the band of rough between the bunkers and the green. It is a fun shot to play to the back left pin position. I don't think I have ever had to pull anything more than a 5 or 6 iron from the tee, which feels just about right to make it a thrilling challenge.

[Alex Miller]

That area has always bothered me too. What if they added another section of green where the blue oval is to create a boomerang (or large Lion's mouth)? The red circle could be fairway and you'd add a lot of interest to the hole by bringing the ocean in to play without actually changing it dramatically.

[Jed Peters]

That area has always bothered me too. What if they added another section of green where the blue oval is to create a boomerang (or large Lion's mouth)? The red circle could be fairway and you'd add a lot of interest to the hole by bringing the ocean in to play without actually changing it dramatically.

If you're a total hack, then that area comes into play, alex. I mean, you have to hit it pretty damn squirrelly to end up over there.

Now, You see your blue circle? I hit my last tee shot to that identical flag and pulled the 6 iron a bit, ending up in the left bunker. Trust me, there is NOT that much room left if you hit it green high.

The ocean does come into play with that hole location.

PS: I've played it recently 3 times (last year) and 2 of those times were in the last couple months. And each time there was at least 2 hacks in my group. No one hit it over there....but the nice grass walking from tee to green sure helped when they topped their tee shots.

Let's not kid ourselves. I haven't EVER heard someone walk off 16 to 17 tee and say "I just don't like this golf hole". To me, that'd just be ridiculous.

[Alex Miller]

There are plenty of holes I like that could still be improved. I haven't had the fortune to play the hole, or even make it out to the green, but I was able to walk the rest of the course and it really blew me away.

Just curious as to what percentage of golfers who play 17 end up in the Pacific? While there may not be that much room, it seems that there still is room. I think having short grass closer to the hazard is beneficial 99% of the time. Take hole 6's fairway as an example. Just my $.02

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matthew,

Have you ever heard of the CCC ?

Doubtful that any change could be made to # 17, although I was surprised by the creation of # 5

[Kevin Pallier]

Let's not kid ourselves. I haven't EVER heard someone walk off 16 to 17 tee and say "I just don't like this golf hole". To me, that'd just be ridiculous.

Jed

Well you have now - what's so great about it ?

Patrick

I think the hole could be improved a number of ways.

The green should be widened - it is pinched way too much. I recall seeing older photos much wider than it is now. Would allow one to use the slopeslin the green more and access the left and right sides easier.

Obviously my next suggestion ain't going to happen but I think a better location for the tee would have been on the small patch of grass to the front of the leisure centre (at around 2 o'clock). Would make one hit it across the ocean ala CPC 16th ? It would give the hole a heroic carry or a bail out area.

[Kalen Braley]

I agree with Kevin on this one...the hole seems silly in it current configuration and if any hole at Pebble is begging to be restored to its original glory, its this one.

[Mike Hendren]

The only criticism I would make (to them rather than you) is they have halved the fairway approach in the last few years.
My father played intentionally to the right and closed me out with a par.

Good observation.  The fairway should be expanded to be much more accomodating and enticing for the lay-up/out approach.  It's small size is no easier to hit than the right segment of the green, hence zero incentive to play there. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
PS: I've played it recently 3 times (last year) and 2 of those times were in the last couple months. And each time there was at least 2 hacks in my group. No one hit it over there....but the nice grass walking from tee to green sure helped when they topped their tee shots.
...

I'm guessing you haven't played it with left-handed hacks. I can see left-handed hacks ending up over there all the time.

[Kalen Braley]

...
PS: I've played it recently 3 times (last year) and 2 of those times were in the last couple months. And each time there was at least 2 hacks in my group. No one hit it over there....but the nice grass walking from tee to green sure helped when they topped their tee shots.
...

I'm guessing you haven't played it with left-handed hacks. I can see left-handed hacks ending up over there all the time.

As much as I hate to do so, I gotta agree with Garland here. 

During the At&T coverage every year I see several tee balls ending up in the stands...which are just as far away from the green as the water is, if not even slightly more so.  If the water were on the right side of that hole, it'd be a blood bath for many amateurs.

[Matthew Petersen]

Yeah I don't see many hacks hit the "Come over the top and pull one that goes left and 15 yards long" shot. And for that matter a lot of hacks probably wouldn't be going at a pin on the left hand side.

But I could very easily see a decent player who figures, "Hey I might not play this hole for another 10 years ... if ever, I'm going at the flag!" but is a little tired by 17 and just powers one out into the blue. Yeah, yeah, I can totally imagine doing that.

[Tim Nugent]

I did a version of #17 on a Replica course.  I was always dissapointed that the Lions Paw bunker was practically invisiable so I played it from a tee about 20' higher.  This is the look the TV cameras give you.  Since it was for public players, I also doubled the size of the green.  It worked pretty well, although it was a chore to get the left side to drain.
I have always liked the angle from the white house at 10 O'clock.  The backdrop across the bay is awesome (and #7 is in view).
A truckload of Dynamite would make this hole better by dropping the green about 10' and drop the front bunker another 5. But as you van see from the profile behind the green, it's all rock!

[Ed Oden]

This has probably already been mentioned elsewhere (although a quick search didn't turn up anything), but there is a short blurb in the current Golfweek issue about tweaks the Arnold Palmer Design Co. has been/will be making to Pebble in advance of the 2019 U.S. Open.  Included among them will be rebulding the 14th and 17th green complexes over the next few years.  I couldn't find an online version of the article to link to, so I have retyped the last few paragraphs describing the plan for these two greens:

The green at the 17th tends to repel what appears to be a good shot into a bunker.  At the 14th green, the changes would open the right side to more hole locations.  Palmer also would look to soften front edges where sand has built up over time.

"We haven't put the final touches to it," said Pebble Beach executive R.J. Harper, classifying the work as "more a restoration program than it is a rebuld or redesign."

"It's to bring some of these greens back to their original shapes, which would enlarge them a little bit."

[Jon Wiggett]

I did a version of #17 on a Replica course.  I was always dissapointed that the Lions Paw bunker was practically invisiable so I played it from a tee about 20' higher.  This is the look the TV cameras give you.  Since it was for public players, I also doubled the size of the green.  It worked pretty well, although it was a chore to get the left side to drain.
I have always liked the angle from the white house at 10 O'clock.  The backdrop across the bay is awesome (and #7 is in view).
A truckload of Dynamite would make this hole better by dropping the green about 10' and drop the front bunker another 5. But as you van see from the profile behind the green, it's all rock!

Tim,

as the TV camera angle would be the one that most people would be familiar with then maybe your 20 feet higher tee would be the one most easily recognised by players.

Would it not be easier to raise the tee by 10 feet than lower the green and bunker.

Jon

[Adam Clayman]

I've seen virtually every angle covered on people's recoveries, on this hole.

Balls that get tugged and head towards this circled area....



.... have a couple of exciting elements affecting them. 1) the long grass could help slow the ball down, Or, 2) the downward sloping terrain propels the ball along to a watery grave.  If you notice, that circle points directly towards those rocks across the water. Those rocks are Point Lobos, a State Park. If there's an Indio at Pebble, it's Point Lobos. So, in reality, a pulled shot here, is pure excitement, anticipating and appreciating the randomness of the final out come. Wet or dry, that is the question.

If one can't rise to the challenge of this hole, to the back left pin, I feel sorry for you.

As an aside, the new bunker work frees up the golfer, even more, to swing away. When those rear bunkers were devilish narly pots, one's pucker had to be greater, since it was beach sand, as I recall.

Hit away and deal.

[Matt Kardash]

I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if this point has been raised, but is it just me or does that area circled in red just beg for a green to be place there? The hole would be a lot shorter, but with the ocean hard left of the green it would make for an exciting shot!