[Tommy Williamsen]

Patrick,

I wrote in my second message that I probably misspoke about Baltusrol being unimaginative.  My real question is, What do you or others find appealing about the course?  I never even said that the course is no good, just that for some reason I'm am not inspired by it.  I would like to change my attitude.  Calling all lovers of the lower course, why do you love it?

[HamiltonBHearst]

This site is one of the few spots where Baltusrol is not appreciated.  A championship course with minimal changing in set-up that is still a delight for the members.  The Upper provides an interesting contrast.  

I think part of the hostility toward the course is that Rees Jones did some work here.  I am still waiting for some documentation as to how he "substantially changed the course" though.

[T_MacWood]

Hambone
If you are interested in the original make up and look of Baltusrol....there is an excellent profile of the course in the February 1931 issue of Golf Illustrated (US)...I would recommend to all fans of the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Why aren't you recommending that we go back to the original Baltusrol, with only 18 holes, and eliminate the excess 18 holes, and change all of the holes that were changed in creating a 36 hole layout ??

[Mike_Cirba]

Baltusrol deserves a great deal of credit for a very quiet, but very effective tree removal program over the past several years on both courses.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

Perhaps it has to do with the negative reaction to adding length to the golf course.  Baltusrol started this process many years ago, and in many cases the newer back tees eliminated hitting many of the greens in regulation for many golfers.
This had some suggest that the course was one dimensional, with an emphasis on length.

The lower doesn't enjoy great terrain and is fairly flat after the third hole.

I'd agree to a mild degree with Hamilton B Hearst on the Rees aspect.

I also suspect that having 36 holes, with Winged Foot an hour away with 36 holes, inevitably draws comparisons, with Winged Foot getting the nod from many.

I also suspect that the large number of Tillinghast courses in close proximity diminishes Baltusrol's luster.

I'd be happy to share two other theories, which may be at the heart of the matter, if you'll send me a private message.

[corey miller]

Is Rees still consulting or working with the club?  I think the course is greatly improved in the years that I have been playing it.  

This distance problem Pat mentions is a real concern for many and last time I was there i noticed a fourth set of tees.  I am not sure it is a problem if a green can not be reached in regulation by many however it is a problem on #11 when a great many can't even see the green after a well struck shot.

The reclaiming of green space has been a success.  Only problem I feel is the narrowing of the fairway on #14.  It used to be a good drive over the left bunker hit the downslope and picked up yardage, this space is now rough forcing a play to the right.

[Matt_Ward]

tommy:

The issue with Baltusrol IMHO is a few things:

1). The course did not fare well in the recent Opens -- even though two of them were won by the game's greatest player (Jack Nicklaus). Having Janzen tie the Open record was a bit a step backwards although to Janzen's credit he did a second Open to validate his first title.

2). The Lower is not really visually exciting by any real standard IMHO. The course is technically sound in that it does ask you to play a wide variety of shots but the Lower doesn't really stir the blood anywhere close to the manner of say a Shinnecock Hills or a Pebble Beach, etc, etc. Sometimes this aspect may influence people looking for the "memorability" factor although I think having back-to-back par-5's at the end is quite memorable.

3). As mentioned by a few others you have a situation in which other Tillinghast courses exist in the NY / NJ metro area.
Clearly, Winged Foot possesses the better 36-hole combination and as a result of the ascension of Bethpage Black you have a situation where Baltusrol is the 3rd man out even though the club was quite quick to grab the PGA slot when TCC bowed out in '05.

4). The course also went through a change in personel with a new superintendent. Mark Kuhns has done a superb job in revitalizing many of the key aspects of both courses. The '05 PGA will be a key event in determining if Baltusrol still has what it takes to remain on the first page of championships courses for the 21st century.

tommy:

I enjoy Baltusrol / Lower because the course is quite straightforward -- the club has extended tees on a few holes but nothing more than what is sensisble given the new technology available today with clubs and balls. Unfortunately, when you are in a very competitive area -- being in the same state as Pine Valley and even Plainfield is also a factor -- you have a situation where the club can be relegated to a lesser status in the minds of others.

I said before I would include Baltusrol Lower among my personal top 100 but somewhere between 75-100. That's not a statement of dissatisfaction by any means -- it's just an acknowledgement that in America there are quite a few well done courses.

P.S. The Upper has also been updated and it's a fine layout as well -- IMHO it's one of the ten best in NJ.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Thanks for all the thoughful replies.  I look forward to playing the lower course again with an open mind.

[Mac Plumart]

There is a thread going around right now asking for more discussion of Baltusrol.  I played it last summer for the first time, so I figured I'd add my two cents to this thread in hopes of stimulating more discussion.

Prior to playing it, when I would study up on the course this is the photo and/or image of Baltusrol that always came up.



And it is a really neat photo with the ultra-cool old school clubhouse in the background with the green of the water carry par 3 4th in the foreground.  What I don't like about this image is that it really isn't indicative of what Baltusrol is all about...at least to me.  And bear in mind, I've played it a grand total of 1 time.  But the image that it casts to me is a course that relies on water and highly contoured and sloping greens.  Both are not true.  Greens are quick and some contours, but they are very subtle and more table-toppish rather than mound/hillish.  And water (particulary ponds) are not over-used at all.

To me the thing that really stood out was the use of bunkers that appeared, while you were standing on the tee box or from long range, to be right on the green...but as you got closer to the green, they were in fact not on the green.  These visual illusion were quite cool and could have an effect on how you choose to play the hole right off the bat.



In addition to these illusion bunkers, the course uses cross bunkers with great effectiveness.

My favorite hole on the course was 13.  And, like I said I've only played this course once, but standing on that tee box, I saw at least three distinct ways to play that hole.  To give you an idea of the hole, here is the view from the tee box...



You can't see it very well, but there is a creek that runs in front of the fairway that is perpendicular (kind of) to the tee shot and parrellel to the bunkers in the back ground, this creek to bunker area creates the fairway that leads to the green.

After crossing the creek, the approach to the hole looks like this...



And if you miss the green right, here is what the hole looks like...



The three ways to play the hole that I noticed on the tee box, all have to do with the type of tee ball you want to hit.  The long bunker hazard will have an impact on what you try, the short creek will impact it as well.

Add in the courses use of cross bunkers, greenside bunkers, titled greens, and length, and you've got a tremendous test of golfing skill.  Both mental and physcial.  I think the course is truly excellent and totally nails what it is supposed to be...a championship golf course.  I can see why some wouldn't like it...it is freakin' hard!!!  But again, it is supposed to be.  It isn't a resort course where Mr. and Mrs. Havecamp want to go enjoy themselves.  It is a course where the greats of the game congregate to see who is the best in the world.  If you don't approach the course with that mind frame, perhaps you won't appreciate it.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Mac,

Thanks for posting the photographs. I know I could find this out by searching, but who designed the course?

[Mac Plumart]

Tillinghast did both the Upper and Lower (I think I'm right on that one).

Then RTJ tweaked it.  And, of course, the famous Baltusrol Lower par 3 picture with the pond is his work.

[Lou Cutolo]

The story goes that after Robert Trent Jones remolded the 4th hole on the lower he was criticized for making it to difficult. He suggested they go play the hole, so he and Johnny Ferrell, went out to the tee. After every one had hit, RTJ steps up and proceeds to make a Hole in one to which he said “Gentleman, I think the hole is eminently fair”

[David Cronheim]

I live nearby and have had the opportunity to play both the Upper and the Lower, though the lower more often. I think the Lower is an outstanding test of golf start to finish and one that keeps you on your toes the whole time. The only hole I'm not a fan of is #2. It's an awkward tee shot that's pinched by OB left and no real risk/reward. However, there are quite a few holes on the course that are both memorable and truly top tier tests - I particularly like #3 and #18.

The Upper is more fun to play, certainly, but from the back tees is every bit as stern a test. When they get those greens rolling quickly, I cannot see how it isn't harder than the Lower. It's just a monster, but in a very different way from the Lower since it is slightly shorter. Most people assume that because people say it's more fun than the Lower that it's easier. They would be wrong. Perhaps for the championship golfer it is, but I would be curious to see what the stroke averages would be for average golfers on both courses with quick greens.

Overall, however, you'd be hard pressed to find a finer club that BGC anywhere in the country. The facilities are immaculately maintained and the clubhouse is absolutely fantastic.

[Lou Cutolo]

David, each year the MGA conducts a junior invitational event at Baltusrol with approximately 40 of the best junior golfers in the Met Area. Granted these kids are not your average golfer but as you can see in 2011 the Lower played about a stroke harder. I would have to look it up but over the past 9 years I think the Upper has always played about a stroke or two higher.


Baltusrol - Upper
Round 1 -- August 3, 2011
   Hole #   Yardage   Par   Stroke Avg   Hole Rank   Eagles   Birdies   Pars   Bogeys   D. Bogeys   Others
   1   440   4   4.61   5   0   2   15   14   5   0
   2   433   4   4.14   16   0   6   20   9   1   0
   3   198   3   3.67   2   0   1   14   17   4   0
   4   398   4   4.19   13   0   6   18   11   1   0
   5   390   4   4.58   6   0   1   16   16   3   0
   6   443   4   4.64   3   0   2   15   15   3   1
   7   225   3   3.61   4   0   0   19   13   3   1
   8   541   5   5.25   11   0   7   18   7   3   1
   9   356   4   4.25   12   0   4   22   7   3   0
   10   166   3   3.33   8   0   2   21   12   1   0
   11   596   5   5.11   17   0   7   19   9   1   0
   12   359   4   4.69   1   0   2   15   12   6   1
   13   386   4   4.17   15   0   2   27   6   1   0
   14   395   4   4.28   10   0   4   20   10   2   0
   15   139   3   3.19   14   0   3   25   6   2   0
   16   447   4   4.33   9   1   2   18   14   1   0
   17   571   5   4.97   18   0   9   20   6   1   0
   18   356   4   4.36   7   0   0   23   13   0   0

   Statistics derived from the # of Rounds Played = 36

   Holes   Yardage   Par   Stroke Avg   Eagles   Birdies   Pars   Bogeys   D. Bogeys   Others
   Out   3424   35   38.944   0   29   157   109   26   3
   In   3415   36   38.444   1   31   188   88   15   1
   Total   6839   71   77.389   1   60   345   197   41   4

Baltusrol - Lower
Round 2 -- August 3, 2011
   Hole #   Yardage   Par   Stroke Avg   Hole Rank   Eagles   Birdies   Pars   Bogeys   D. Bogeys   Others
   1   478   5   4.64   18   2   15   15   2   2   0
   2   371   4   4.22   15   0   5   20   9   2   0
   3   451   4   4.56   1   0   0   19   15   1   1
   4   186   3   3.53   2   0   1   20   11   3   1
   5   395   4   4.39   10   0   2   19   14   1   0
   6   465   4   4.44   6   0   1   20   14   0   1
   7   500   5   5.11   17   1   9   16   7   2   1
   8   374   4   4.42   9   0   3   18   12   3   0
   9   205   3   3.25   14   0   2   24   9   1   0
   10   444   4   4.33   12   0   1   23   11   1   0
   11   422   4   4.36   11   0   3   20   11   1   1
   12   202   3   3.50   4   0   3   15   16   1   1
   13   401   4   4.44   7   0   3   16   15   2   0
   14   406   4   4.17   16   0   4   22   10   0   0
   15   415   4   4.44   8   0   0   22   12   2   0
   16   210   3   3.50   5   0   1   17   17   1   0
   17   570   5   5.50   3   0   2   20   10   2   2
   18   520   5   5.25   13   0   4   21   10   0   1

   Statistics derived from the # of Rounds Played = 36

   Holes   Yardage   Par   Stroke Avg   Eagles   Birdies   Pars   Bogeys   D. Bogeys   Others
   Out   3425   36   38.556   3   38   171   93   15   4
   In   3590   36   39.500   0   21   176   112   10   5
   Total   7015   72   78.056   3   59   347   205   25   9

[Jim Nugent]

Lou, 77.388 average score on the upper vs 78.056 on the lower.  That's less than 0.7 strokes difference.  And the upper is par 71, while the lower is par 72.  So against par, would seem the upper played slightly tougher. 

[Cliff Hamm]

Would love to know the putting differences.  The upper's are simply diabolical.  Stats from the US Amateur would be enlightening from the qualifying rounds.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Would love to know the putting differences.  The upper's are simply diabolical.  Stats from the US Amateur would be enlightening from the qualifying rounds.

Cliff,

Years ago I was playing in a Tournament on the Upper.  One of my fellow competitors was from Houston, TX.
It was his first time playing the Upper.
In the first six holes he had four (4) three putts and two (2) four putts.
As he walked off the 6th green onto the 7th tee, having just four (4) putted, he just stood there, staring at the bench on the tee.
Then............ then he attacked the bench, he kicked it, he threw it, he jumped up and down on it until he destroyed it.
My initial shock at his reaction to his putting woes soon turned to laughter.
He was so frustrated that he was beside himself, not knowing whether to walk off, give up the game, scream and yell, attack his caddy, playing partners and their caddies, all of whom were rather robust, so, he focused his angst on that poor defenseless bench.

The story doesn't end there.
A friend obtained stationery from clubs who host major amateur events and USGA events.
Shortly after his arrival home, he received about a dozen letters from clubs, along with regional and national golf associations, tellling him that he had been banned for five years to life from these amateur events.  The signature of the author of the letters was that of "Huthcinson River Parkway III"
Being from Texas, he didn't connect the name on the letter to the highway in New York and just thought that good old Hutchinson's family must have been very aristocratic, probably arriving on the Mayflower.

Putting on the Upper is exponentially more difficult than putting on the Lower, and putting on the lower can be difficult, depending upon hole locations.

[Cliff Hamm]

Good story Pat...AS you may or may not know, in my youth I caddied at Baltusrol.  The truism everything breaks away from the mountain was just that, but only tells part of the story.  I have not had the luxury of playing the top courses that many others have, but I am always surprised that the Upper's greens are not mentioned.  The outgoing greens next to the 'mountain' were among the most memorable as I recall .  2,3 and 4 especially come to mind but they are all difficult and take a lot of local knowledge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cliff,

The very first time I played the Upper was in a tournament that had a shotgun start.

We started on the 3rd hole.

There was a gallery at the green, and we were on the tee waiting to tee off when one of the competitors in my group had to take a squirt.  He walked over near a tree and as he was about to go, asked:  Do you think the gallery on the green can see me ?"  To which I responded, "Don't worry about it, we can't see anything and we're on the tee"  Everyone laughed except the squirter.

When we hit our approaches and got to the green, I was about 30-40 feet from the hole.
I asked my caddy how much my putt was going to break.
He walked to a point about 20 feet above the hole and said, "hit it up here".
Despite it being 8:00 in the morning, I thought he was drunk.
I said, "Are you serious ?"  He said "yep".  I thought it broke about a quarter of what he indicated, but decided to give him a little weight and played it about halfway between his read and mine.

Darned if he wasn't right.
I couldn't believe it.
It was a rainbow putt.

From that point on I listened to his reads.
The first hole, let alone the first six holes can ruin your round before you know it.

I like the Upper course, always have.

[Cliff Hamm]

Johnny Miller commenting on the 4th green at the US Am felt that green was unfair because of the difficulty in hitting it to the right side...What I remember about the third, it's been far too long, is that it didn't matter if you couldn't see the green.  Just hit it well to the right as everything kicked down lots to the left.

 Guests always wanted to play the Lower because of its fame, but members played about 60% of their rounds on the Upper.  Caddies played on Mondays, but Upper only.  Looking back on it maybe that's a good thing, altho I think the Lower takes too much criticism around here.  The PGA returns to the Lower in a few years, but I do wish Baltusrol could get another Open.  Yes, the scores have been low, but the leader boards typically excellent.  Conditions have also typically been benign with little rough and/or on the wet side.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I love the Upper and generally score better on it because I have learned a little about how to putt those treacherous greens.  It takes imagination and skill to get sound those first five or six holes without letting them devour your dreams of glory.

I played the lower two weeks before the PGA. My friend/host (also a friend of yours Pat) asked to play it from the back tees.  I don't hit it far but am pretty straight.  I shot 85 with A smooth triple on 14.  I think it was as well as I could play.  The NJ am champion played it as well and shot 81.  Whenever I play I always play both.

I think what I like the best about the club is that the two courses are very different.  Winged Foot may have the edge on quality but their  two courses are more similar than they are different.

[Sam Morrow]

Would love to know the putting differences.  The upper's are simply diabolical.  Stats from the US Amateur would be enlightening from the qualifying rounds.

Cliff,

Years ago I was playing in a Tournament on the Upper.  One of my fellow competitors was from Houston, TX.
It was his first time playing the Upper.
In the first six holes he had four (4) three putts and two (2) four putts.
As he walked off the 6th green onto the 7th tee, having just four (4) putted, he just stood there, staring at the bench on the tee.
Then............ then he attacked the bench, he kicked it, he threw it, he jumped up and down on it until he destroyed it.
My initial shock at his reaction to his putting woes soon turned to laughter.
He was so frustrated that he was beside himself, not knowing whether to walk off, give up the game, scream and yell, attack his caddy, playing partners and their caddies, all of whom were rather robust, so, he focused his angst on that poor defenseless bench.

The story doesn't end there.
A friend obtained stationery from clubs who host major amateur events and USGA events.
Shortly after his arrival home, he received about a dozen letters from clubs, along with regional and national golf associations, tellling him that he had been banned for five years to life from these amateur events.  The signature of the author of the letters was that of "Huthcinson River Parkway III"
Being from Texas, he didn't connect the name on the letter to the highway in New York and just thought that good old Hutchinson's family must have been very aristocratic, probably arriving on the Mayflower.

Putting on the Upper is exponentially more difficult than putting on the Lower, and putting on the lower can be difficult, depending upon hole locations.

I'd pay good money to know who the Texan was.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sam,

Why don't you guess in an IM to me.

I'll tell you who it was in the responding IM

[Bill Brightly]

A few of my photos.  (I did a poor job numbering my album, let me know if I got any wrong!)
#2


#4


#5




#18 green and clubhouse

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