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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2012, 10:21:42 AM »
"today's architects have made great contributions to affordable public golf"

Are you fricking kidding me?  The quality of at least mid range public golf has never been higher!  I have built more courses like Commonwealth than TD will ever hope to build.  Proud of it, too.  And I can name a few dozen more gca's in the same boat.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2012, 10:46:15 AM »
Jeff,

I assume you meant CommonGround.  Doak's work at CommonGround seems rather unique to me.  He and his team are currently at least one of the few "it" design firms, they took a discounted fee to transform a previously nothing course near the heart of a metropolitan area, and they did it in accordance with minimalist principles--they didn't move much earth and created much of the interest through greens/green surrounds and angles of play.  I can't think of another project quite like it.

I guess my point is that not all mid-range public golf courses are created equally.  (And please don't take this as a criticism of your work, which I honestly don't know very well). 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2012, 11:38:13 AM »
Tim,

Yes, I meant Commonground, sorry.  I have driven by it, and viewed it from the aerial but not played it.  No doubt its a great course.  Nor did I take your comments as critique of my work.

However, many of us have a permanently lower fee structure, and spent a lot of time designing very good tracts, on a budget forever.  From our point of view, that Doak or RTJ or JN (or their fans) does it and proclaims it as something new and different, it just isn't.  Most of us have been applying good design principles in a practical way to mid range public courses for a few decades now.

Well, if its the first Doak style affordable public, then I guess it is, but then, if Brian Silva brings his Raynor templates to a public course, then thats also a pretty exciting design.  Or, many original designs by the likes of Tim Nugent and others.  There is just more good stuff out there than anyone can possibly play at the public level now.  And, if I payed $6-8 in the 70's as a kid, then the $25-45 paid now is well within inflation the same cost range, and you get much better courses.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 12:26:39 PM »
Jeff:

I was thinking more of the guys like yourself, than thinking of myself, when I made my comments above.  I thought the comment was ridiculous that modern architects haven't done a lot for public golf.

Modern "signature" architects would be another story, though.

As for myself, Common Ground is certainly not the only public golf course I've done.  The majority of my best courses are public!  I think it's a pretty good list:

High Pointe and Beechtree [unfortunately NLE]
Black Forest
The Legends
Charlotte Golf Links
Quail Crossing
Pacific Dunes
The Rawls Course
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
St. Andrews Beach
Old Macdonald
Streamsong

I'm sure you would choose to classify some of these as "resort" and not public, but in fact they are all open to anyone.  And all but two of them were built for budgets between $1.5 million and $4 million.  Some of them charge a lot more than $40 to play, but as you know, that's out of our control, and most owners will take it if they can get it.  I was pleased to reduce my fees for Common Ground and take a royalty instead, when they agreed to keep the green fees down.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 12:57:52 PM »
This seems like a lot of words thrown together by a thesaurus happy PR minion.  Brutalization of language is right!  To imply--rather verbosely--that their firm is leading the way towards a new reality for public golf is to arrogantly ignore the work of a few dozen other guys over the past 20 years.

This is an Olympic press piece, nothing more. 


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2012, 01:03:10 PM »
TD,

Given 2/3 of all courses built have been public since either you or I got in the biz, I suspect every gca has done at least some public - Even Faz, although his are mostly high end/resort, at least to start.   

We agree that with those numbers, its hard to say that architects haven't done much for public golf. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2012, 01:49:04 PM »
"Chairman and Master Architect Robert Trent Jones, Jr."...   How does one become a "Master Architect"?
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2012, 02:18:23 PM »
Paul,

Near as I know, he gave that title to himself.  However, a group in Britain awards the title of Master Greenskeeper, bsed on some criteria, so its not out of the question that some other group bestowed the title.

 Or, some newsguy wrote it in a story, and he took that as a cue to call himself that.  Seems his dad was called that by someone.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2012, 02:29:45 PM »
His father's course at Treetops in Michigan is officially named "The Robert Trent Jones Masterpiece" course.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2012, 02:33:20 PM »
TD,

Hmm, that raises all kinds of questions.  Would you allow one of your owners to declare their course your "masterpiece?"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2012, 02:40:29 PM »
Playing with some friends last summer I noticed the simple design of bags I carried in high school and college were gone. They were replaced by complicated, cluttered bags laden with straps, zippers, pockets and stands. I missed the single strap. I missed carrying the bag on either shoulder. I missed the chatter of the irons as I walked down the fairway. I missed a single divider. I missed simple headcovers. So, right there and then, EZE's Golf Bag Company was born.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2012, 03:18:07 PM »
"Chairman and Master Architect Robert Trent Jones, Jr."...   How does one become a "Master Architect"?

Just lucky he's not a fisherman  ;D
Coasting is a downhill process

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2012, 03:29:17 PM »
Eric,

I would say some of those new features are great examples of form follows function - the double strap sure seems to spread out the load for me anyway.  And the stands save an aging back from bending over.  Etc.

And who doesn't need more "Bob Tway Memorial Watch pouches" in their golf bag? 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2012, 04:29:53 PM »
TD,

Hmm, that raises all kinds of questions.  Would you allow one of your owners to declare their course your "masterpiece?"

Jeff:

I won't even allow one of my owners to name their course the "Tom Doak course".  Chris Johnston is still bummed out at me for saying no.  But, I don't like the implication that any course is all about Me.  Maybe, if I own one someday, that will be the Tom Doak course.

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2012, 06:23:58 PM »
Supposedly RTJ Sr is quoted as calling the Treetops course "my masterpiece," thus the name.  I don't have a source, but I remember seeing it up at the resort and think it is also on the scorecards, of which I should have a few buried somewhere. 
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Emile Bonfiglio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2012, 06:56:10 PM »
 I am not convinced that today's architects have made great contributions to affordable public golf.

As one who mainly plays public courses I am grateful the contributions that "today's architects" have made, and by contributions I mean the saturated amount of course that flooded the market (many which the development of made no sense) which now gives me the chance to play great courses at very reasonable rates.
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2012, 07:57:14 PM »
Frankly when I saw this I thought it was the biggest crock of BS I'd seen in some times. After all, his so-called "muni" cost a reported $20M to build. That's championing inexpensive public golf.

This is a spin job done by a PR agency.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Carl Rogers

Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2012, 11:25:17 AM »
.....
As for myself, Common Ground is certainly not the only public golf course I've done.  The majority of my best courses are public!  I think it's a pretty good list:

High Pointe and Beechtree [unfortunately NLE]
Black Forest
The Legends
Charlotte Golf Links
Quail Crossing
Pacific Dunes
The Rawls Course
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
St. Andrews Beach
Old Macdonald
Streamsong
....
TD, you forgot Riverfront, anybody can tee it up there...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2012, 06:37:10 PM »
.....
As for myself, Common Ground is certainly not the only public golf course I've done.  The majority of my best courses are public!  I think it's a pretty good list:

High Pointe and Beechtree [unfortunately NLE]
Black Forest
The Legends
Charlotte Golf Links
Quail Crossing
Pacific Dunes
The Rawls Course
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
St. Andrews Beach
Old Macdonald
Streamsong
....
TD, you forgot Riverfront, anybody can tee it up there...

My bad.  The Sheep Ranch and Aetna Springs are actually public, too.  And I think there are one or two others as well ... I didn't have a full list in front of me.

Sam Morrow

Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2012, 09:22:57 PM »
I like RTJ's courses, of I've played a few.

Sky Creek Ranch, upscale public
Miramont, ultraprivate with 90,000 square foot clubhouse
Le Triomphe, high end private club

I'm looking forward to playing The Patriot this year, high end club also.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2012, 09:27:09 PM »
I'd like to have seen a commitment to a 'less than six-figure' design fee.
Archies need to respond to the global recession like everybody else.

F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2012, 11:31:57 AM »
I'd like to have seen a commitment to a 'less than six-figure' design fee.
Archies need to respond to the global recession like everybody else.

F.

RTJ II's brother didn't have any interest in the Rio Olympic course because "there wasn't enough money in it"... I was blown away by that, because in 1-2 years from now it could possibly be the only course being built in the world!

Don_Mahaffey

Re: RTJ II Issues Public Golf Proclamation
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2012, 11:44:37 AM »
I'd like to have seen a commitment to a 'less than six-figure' design fee.
Archies need to respond to the global recession like everybody else.

F.
Yes, they need to respond, but more so about how our courses are constructed then by cutting fees and promoting status quo.

Cutting fees in half doesn't do much if courses continue to be designed with 2M+ irrigation systems, greens that cost 100K each to build, and require a large maint budget.

Way to many owners focus on low fees instead of overall cost. Which is the better bargain, a supt who makes 40K but spends 800K on maint, or a super who makes 120K but only needs 500K to provide the same (or better) conditions?   

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