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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Let's say you have a property. you have a great routing but when you had up the numbers, you end up with a 6300 yards par 71 course... you know with a couple efforts here and there you can bring it to 6400 yards pr 71.

the property is ample enough for a 7000 yards course but the best routing is the one above...

did that ever happened to you ?

if not, what would you do ?

or when routing a course, you automatically overlook the 6300 yard option ?

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ever compromised a great routing because of the lack of length ?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 07:12:08 AM »
Philippe,

It appears to me that the gulf between 6,400 yards and 7,000 yards doesn't usually arise from a simple one or two compromises. Surely you must be talking about significant routing changes? In other words an entirely different routing.

In which case I'm not sure anyone can really answer without having to know and weigh up those compromises in the same way you are... Will your Client accept the 6,400 yard option if you sell it to him?... I presume this is real and not hypothetical...

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ever compromised a great routing because of the lack of length ?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2012, 08:52:31 AM »
What does the market tell you?  It is not wise to develop in a vacuum.  Are there the demographics to support one alternative over the other?

If there are other courses in the area of similar length, is your strategy to be head and shoulders better?  If there aren't courses of this length, will it be positively received?

All too often, it is possible to fall into the trap of projecting one liking onto the population as a whole (because I and other "Smart" people I know like this idea - everybody should like it).  This holds for more than just golf.

Bottom line, Dad always held that the demographics in golf are like a pyramid.  To succeed in the long run, one must capture the bottom 2/3.  When everyone is fighting over the top 1/3, there will be some winners but many losers.

 Personally, I don't like to venture much below 6,600 yds (or above 7,000 yds) unless there is a clear mandate or reason.
Coasting is a downhill process

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ever compromised a great routing because of the lack of length ?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 09:59:29 AM »
Interesting comment Mr Nugent.

Wouldn't it be wise for a course to develop its own identity instead of be just one of the bunch.

If there is a window on the length of course course in an area, it would be nice to use it. (Example, a longer course to host championship if championship needs to be received).

But the question is: why are we doing this ?

Is golf development just a macho environment where to key is to have the course bigger the one next door ?
People want golf to be fun, fast and affordable

golf industry has offered slow, boring, dumb and overpriced for so long

read A short history of progress... the world would be a better place if common sense prevailed more often 

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Ever compromised a great routing because of the lack of length ?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 10:29:30 AM »
Routing always over length, after all is it not ‘the game’ we crave to play. Anyone who requires more than 6,500yard to play a good round has lost his way along with our governing bodies.

We want good challenging courses that make us think, not through the toys we use to generally do that for us. Many can’t play the shorter courses because testosterone is affecting their thinking.  The game is to navigate through the traps and hazards but the aerial game is boring at best, expensive to build and maintain and proves zero regard one’s skill level.

Give me good routing first and foremost as it’s the heart of GCA, it is the design as all else are just the additives. Just because you own a fast car (fast horse etc) does not mean that you have to drive at its top speed all the time. The car allows all aspects of driving to be fully experienced not just the high top speed. The fun of an expensive sports car is the ability to corner, which far outweighs the thrill of going fast on a straight road. That just requires adaptive cruise control while holding the steering wheel, wow that takes real skill, the Hell it does. The ability to build up ones experience as you learns how to control the car through all the corners is where the real skill is learnt. Letting one understanding the pure enjoyment of acquiring skill against just steering in a boring straight line.

Were the Golden Age courses on the sort side or were they all over 7000 yards.

Routing over length, it’s a no brainer, unless you are a testosterone dickhead.

Melvyn

« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 10:51:41 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ever compromised a great routing because of the lack of length ?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 11:15:31 AM »
Melvyn...

In a theorical world, you're right.

In the business world, could it be told: it's routing over length or routing over bankruptcy

why are we building a course 15% bigger for 1% of the clientele... doesn't make sense

but don't isolate golf from the rest of our society, if a private company was running transportation through north america... they're will be lots of trains and very few cars.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ever compromised a great routing because of the lack of length ?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 11:28:27 AM »
7000 yard private courses seem to be membership driven, whether building new or renovating old ones. When I was at my son's club a few years ago a lady asked, "How long is the course?". When I said about 6500 yards.  Her response was, "It must be easy.". When I asked her handicap she told me 20.  She wouldn't even play those tees!    What kind of nonsense is this? 
I applaud architects who are able to build courses that are shorter than the 7000+ yards that are interesting yet have still are challenging for the low handicapper. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ever compromised a great routing because of the lack of length ?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 12:13:45 PM »
Crystal Downs is easy then...

favorite story in golf design:
Walk into the clubhouse at Crystal Downs and somebody talk to Tom Doak about adding a couple of tees here and there that would add 40 yards to the course, and wanted his opinion about it

Tom Doak's answer: How many rounds under par by the membership this year ?

The interlocutor's answer: probably 1 or 2.

---------------------- End of the debate -------------------------

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