Ravenwood (Robin Nelson) western NY

[mark chalfant]

Whitten gave this a glowing review a few years ago. Looks to have pleasant rolling land with some strategic interest . Has anyone played Ravenwood ?

thanks

[Ronald Montesano]

I've played it.  It is quite an enjoyable round of golf.  I played it early on in its existence and haven't been back since.  I'm sure that the Rochester-area guys have a better sense of the course.  It hosted a successful NY State amateur a few years back, one of the most exciting finishes ever for the tournament.  It is a typical upstate NY piece of property that Mr. Nelson made very accessible yet challenging, too.  The par five holes, as is often the case, are among the most memorable.  The second is a fine short par four.  A pair of the par threes are quite challenging as well.

[JNC Lyon]

As a Rochester guy I've played the course half a dozen times.  It's definitely a lot of fun.  It is very wide open which makes it different from a lot of the courses in the area.  The routing is VERY strong, making perfect use of the Western New York terrain of rolling hills and marsh and sending holes in all different directions.  I may say it is an almost 'Ross-like' routing from Nelson, flowing, constantly returning to the clubhouse, and very walkable.  2 and 7 are excellent short fours with lots of strategy, with 16 being a solid third.  All of the par fives are solid, especially nine, which has a great elevated green benched into the hillside below the clubhouse.  5 and 13 are excellent long par fours that require two very solid shots to make par without being unfair.

I have two qualms with the course.  Firstly, although there are a few wild surfaces (The crater green at 2, 3, 9, 16), most of the greens lack a lot of character.  Most of them are low profile and subtle.  Therefore, none of them are bad, but they don't contain a tremendous amount of interest.  Secondly, I was not impressed with Nelson's use of lakes at 3, 14 and 17.  The lake on 14 is clearly manufactured and entirely unnecessary for irrigation considering the presence of the other two lakes.  Here, Nelson had an opportunity to create a great short three in between two bruising par fours, but he fell short because of the lake.  The current hole is still good, but its artificiality is irritating.  17's lake appears to be natural, but it is very cliched long par three over water at the end of the round.

If the bunkering (generally good in placement but boring in presentation) were injected with some excitement, I would rate this course very highly.  As of now, although I think Whitten's review is typically overzealous, Ravenwood is my favorite public course in the area along with Greystone and Mill Creek.  I think it is a fine effort from Nelson, and it is definitely worth playing if you are in the area.

[Robert Thompson]

I played it a couple of times around the PGA Championship at Oak Mill (2003?). In fact I was on it during the east coast blackout.

I think it is an interesting, rolling, pretty intriguing course, with a neat short four, a neat skyline green and a fair number of classic features. Considering Robin hasn't done much in North America, I'm surprised this didn't capture more attention for him. A fun course, that I'd say is worth seeking out.

[Ronald Montesano]

Senyor Lyon's profile of Ravenwood is accurate.  The weak par 3 on the back is exactly what he says it is.  The hole is dwarfed by the lake.  In fact, that's something that may or may not have had discussion on this site over the years:  what to do when one feature absolutely dwarfs the remainder of the hole.  The big lake hole I associate more with RTJ Senior and others from that era.  In that sense, the 14th is more of an RTJ hole than a Ross hole.  17 is almost identical to a par three that Ted Robinson built at Royal Niagara, across the border from Niagara Falls, USA, in Niagara On The Lake, Ontario.  Elevated tee, angled green (like 14 at Muirfield Village), pond on the right front/side.  It exacts precision at a good point in the round, especially since 18 is a simple par five at Ravenwood.

[mark chalfant]

Thanks  for the great replies .


JNC Lyon  or Ronald M.....   I  would love to hear your thoughts on Mill Creek. Is the routing at M. Creek as neat  as  Robin Nelson's  gem  at Ravenwood  in Victor,  NY

[JNC Lyon]

Whitten gave this a glowing review a few years ago. Looks to have pleasant rolling land with some strategic interest . Has anyone played Ravenwood ?

thanks

In short, no.  I like Mill Creek because it has several solid individual holes with neat alternate route options.  8 is a very neat short four with a green pitched away from the golfer.  14 is a great par four with a double fairway.  The player can thread the needle between a bunker and a creek to the right to gain a good angle into a shelf green with a bunker left, or he can lay out to the wider fairway to the left to face a long approach shot with a poor angle.  The course is usually firm and fast and is great to play in the wind.  The greens are generally wild to putt, but they lack a certain amount of charm that is present at Ravenwood.

The huge drawback of the course is indeed the routing.  The clubhouse is situated atop a huge drumlin that is the highest point in Monroe County. This is listed as a major attraction for the course, and its slogan is "Rochester's High Point for Golf."  However, Paul Albanese has a very difficult time working around the drumlin.  1 is a fairly good getaway hole from the top of drumlin, and holes 2 through 8 play nicely along the gentle hillside, although the entire front nine is spread and lacks a sense of flow and intimacy between the holes.  The real bloodshed starts at 9, a medium par three that plays straight up the drumlin parallel to number 1.  The only hazard is pond on top of the hill next to the green.  10 and 11 then play down and up the drumlin respectively and are two of the worst holes in the area.  These three holes greatly disrupt the stretch of solid holes on the course.  None of them inspire shotmaking or strategy.  12 through 17 continue along nicely after this with varying degrees of success (13, 14, 16 being the most interesting of the nine).  Finally, the golfer reaches a horrid 18th that runs back towards the clubhouse up and along the drumlin.  The hole is a short four that gives the golfer two fairways.  One is 18 yards wide and unholdable on the right hillside, while other is a visually and strategically monstrosity well to the left.  It makes for a very unsatisfying end to an uneven golf course.

Overall, Mill Creek is a disjointed collection of holes that range from VERY good (6, 7, 8, 14, 16) to awful (9-11, 18).  When it first opened, the course was one of my favorite in the area.  However, subsequent replays have revealed a subpar routing and a lack of charm that make it unsatisfying.  Therefore, despite its shortcomings, Ravenwood, along with Greystone (John Foley is a member), are better choices for public golf in Western NY.

[John Foley]

Mark,

Ravenwood is about a mile from my house and I try and get there often as possible. As John & Ron (the other Western NY brethern) have atested the strength at Ravenood is in it's routing and it's biggest fault (which is not that great IMHO) is that the putting surfaces, except for a few are somewhat benign. It has some very strong par 4's (#5 is a brutal uphill - usually into the wind - monster) some very good par 5's ( #6 & 18 are reachable while #12 & 9 are tough 3 shotters) and the par 3's are OK.

I agree with the asesment that the forced use of H2o hurts the over all expereince. If the greens had a little more movement / charchter it would be better, however it's still a very good course.

If you are going to be in the area, drop me a note.

[John Foley]

Mill Creek is a very disjointed course. It has a few very good fun holes (par 5 #2 to a punch bowl green & par 3 # 6 which has a great putting surface) and some very tough holes (love #15). The rest though, it leaves you scratching your head. The routing is ?? Down the hill then back up, then down then up then down then up. You get a few feelings os Didn't I just hit this shot 3 holes ago??

Bunch of other questions...

Why is # 1 routed through the tree's and the then you pop out into a tree less front?? Same with # 12 and don't get me started on #10 which is just a plain horrible hole. Down hill fw runs out at about 190 yards from the tee and then it's straight downhill to the green.

Now, you want a great course, go to Greystone. Some of the better greens around. Plenty of movement, plenty of strategy, plenty of demanding shots.  It's only flaw IMHO is 18 which requires a forced 130 yard cary over water. Even then it's a great green (double shared w/ #9 and approached 90 degrees apart).

[JNC Lyon]

John Foley:

It sounds like we are on the same page regarding Ravenwood and Mill Creek.  However, I'm not as enthusiastic about Greystone as you are.  The greens as a set are fantastic, especially at 2, 4 (probably the best hole on the course), 6, 7, 10, 13, 14, and 18.  However, I'm just not sure if there are enough exciting holes to hold up.  It definitely doesn't have any boneheads like Mill Creek, but except for 16 I am not a fan of the par fives.  1, 9 and 12 are all slogs with little object other than to blast three shots and hope for the best.  I generally like holes 4-8, but the routing doesn't quite flow for me either.  Like Mill Creek and Ravenwood, the bunkering is less than inspiring.

Ultimately, the greens are by far the best set of the three courses mentioned, and the par threes and mid-range fours are very solid.  The par fives, bunkering and lack a great short par four (10 is good but doesn't compete with any of the three at Ravenwood) just bring the course down for me.  Overall, I'd definitely rather play it than Mill Creek, but I still think Ravenwood is just a hair better because of the superior routing and great short fours.

Mark Chalfant, et al.:

Another public course in Rochester of great interest is Deerfield (North/South).  The course was built in the 1960s by local architect Pete Craig (he also designed Soaring Eagles in Horseheads) with an all-golf public course mentality.  The land is a little flat in spots but it makes great use of a ravine running through the property.  The routing isn't amazing but it is easily walked and there are no houses to speak of.  The sense that the course is isolated from the rest of the world makes it of the course makes it a joy to play.  The biggest highlight is the greens, which are wild as a group.  Every green contains significant internal movement without being out of scale with the surrounds.  Like Greystone, the course suffers a lack of a short four, and it has a conspicuous lack of strategy.  Nevertheless the course's uncramped nature and dynamite greens make it great public course for the area.

[Ronald Montesano]

We love to use the word "glacial drumlin."  I can't get enough of it.  I disagree with JNC Lyon on hole #11 at Mill Creek.  Being a Spanish teacher by trade, anything terraced reminds me of Machu Picchu and Incan scenery.  The 11th is a great par five whose only drawback is a stupid tree by a greenside bunker that obscures part of the green.  The play is simple:  drive uphill to terrace one.  Play your second shot to terrace two or give the green a go.  Finally, hit a short iron to an angled green with at least two tiers.  This par five runs about halfway up the drumlin.  After a boring and long but downhill par three and a par four with lots of sand, you play a couple of lowland holes near Mill Creek's par three course.  The 14th is a long par four with a tucked green that reminds me of Pacific Dunes' 13th, with the green tucked against the hillside and not much room to miss either right or left (I have great imagination.)  The 15th is a long par five that runs a drumlin floor below 11.  It ain't inspiring but it is demanding.  17 is easily the best par three on the course and 18 is a let-down (for its goofiness) after 17.

[Ronald Montesano]

As you drive I-90 toward Ravenwood, you pass the ghosts of The Belfry USA, a course occupying land on both sides of the highway that had a soft opening one Fall then fell into bankruptcy and never opened to the public.  A harsh reminder of hard times.

I would put Greystone and Mill Creek side by side...I enjoy the first 17 holes at Greystone and despise 18.  No sense in hitting 5-iron off a downhill lie to a green sited over an enormous lake...did RTJ Senior come back from the dead to build this hole?  At least nine plays parallel to the lake, rather than over it.  The 9th and 18th share a gimmicky double green.

I disagree on the 12th hole...that's a great par five.  It reminds me of Arcadia Bluff's 11th, except for the fact that it plays uphill instead of down.  The fairway carves a trace between massive limestone hillocks (the course was a quarry, if I'm not mistaken, and is constantly threatening to reopen as a quarry and kill the golf.)  It's pretty cool.

[JNC Lyon]

Ronald Montesano:

I couldn't disagree more about 11 at Mill Creek.  It is a wretched par five that never should have been built.  I can't stand the terraced fairways at Mill Creek, and 11 is especially poor with two of them.  The tee shot has two fairways but only one real option of driving it left.  Driving it right means missing left leaves a billy goat stance while missing right is in the water.  The second shot is even worse, with another terraced fairway.  The right side leaves no angle no matter where the hole is cut because of the tree in the way, while the left fairway only leaves an angle when the pin is left.  If the pin is back right, the only angle to the flag is from 20 yards into the left rough.  In addition to all of this, the hole plays straight up a mountain, meaning you feel you are hitting your first two shots into a wall.  The hole is the antithesis of fun for me.

It seems you throw around the word 'great' too much when describing golf holes.  12 at Greystone?  Well, it is all right I suppose.  But again, it seems to be a long uphill slog with no real strategy or options other than to blast away and hope for the best.  The cut through the quarry remnants and the green just don't bring enough charcter to save it fro a certain degree of mediocrity.

As for 18 at Greystone, I agree it is not a great hole.  However, it is certainly not awful.  What is your opinion of the 11th of CC of Buffalo?  Certainly 11 at CCB is more unique in appearance (a par four second shot over water is hardly original) and is more reasonable off the tee, but the holes are very similar in that they require a heroic approach over quarry excavations to a first rate green complex.  18 at Greystone is far from my favorite hole on the course (the tee shot is completely ridiculous), but it is certainly passable.  Greystone is built from an old quarry (in fact, the Odenbach family that owns the course has constructed 3 courses around the area from old quarries and a dump site), and this old digging is what gives the course its great land and character.

[Ronald Montesano]

That's fine...membership on this site is not by acclamation, nor is agreement on all topics a prerequisite.  I'll consult my thesaurus.com with more frequency to avoid words like "great."  I'll call #11 at Mill Creek "thought-provoking" and "sensitive," while saving "captivating" and "august" for #14 at Greystone.  I'll bring the chain saw, you bring the lighter fluid and we'll be done with that tree on #11 for good, right?

#11 at CCB does not require a carry over water.  The quarry is 70% fairway and is easily playable (as long as you're not afraid of hitting a wedge to a shelf.)  In fact, with the exception of the tee ball on #12 at CCB, there is not a forced carry with extreme penalty at the place.  You'll always find your ball at CCB.  You and I both know we cannot say the same thing about Greystone.  That said, I enjoy Greystone very much.  My wife loves me tremendously (she's great, after all) but never fails to note my shortcomings and foibles.

[JNC Lyon]

  I'll bring the chain saw, you bring the lighter fluid and we'll be done with that tree on #11 for good, right?

Absolutely 

Good points on 11 at CC of Buffalo.  I definitely like the hole much better than 18 at Greystone because of the recovery option.

[Ronald Montesano]

http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Ravenwood%2011-25-2011/

Shot these today, in the company of Juan Lyon and Kevino Lynch...I'll find time this winter to do a full photo thread.