[Tom_Doak]

I haven't been to North Shore yet-but, in looking at the photos of the 17th, I immediately thought about it looking somewhat similar to a mirror image of the 2nd at Garden City GC, which is a great hole as well.  This is not meant as a shot in any way, shape, or form-it's a great looking par three, and seems to make good use of a naturally ocurring small ravine on the property.  I love GCGC, so to be inspired by one of the holes there is a good thing. 

Tom, not sure if you can speak to this? 

Doug:

I had not thought of the similarity to the 2nd hole at Garden City ... I haven't been over there for too long now, and shame on me really, considering how close it is to North Shore.  I can see the resemblance a bit, and they are about the same length, but the green at North Shore is very different in proportion and contour to the one at Garden City.  The idea of this hole was really the Macdonald / Raynor "Short" hole which was not originally included by Raynor at North Shore, because his original course had only three par-3's.

[Tom MacWood]

TD
When your work is done what architects will you credit for the final product?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I haven't been to North Shore yet-but, in looking at the photos of the 17th, I immediately thought about it looking somewhat similar to a mirror image of the 2nd at Garden City GC, which is a great hole as well.  This is not meant as a shot in any way, shape, or form-it's a great looking par three, and seems to make good use of a naturally ocurring small ravine on the property.  I love GCGC, so to be inspired by one of the holes there is a good thing. 

Tom, not sure if you can speak to this? 

Doug:

I had not thought of the similarity to the 2nd hole at Garden City ... I haven't been over there for too long now, and shame on me really, considering how close it is to North Shore.  I can see the resemblance a bit, and they are about the same length, but the green at North Shore is very different in proportion and contour to the one at Garden City.  The idea of this hole was really the Macdonald / Raynor "Short" hole which was not originally included by Raynor at North Shore, because his original course had only three par-3's.

Thanks for your thoughts, Tom.  From the pictures, the green looks to be a little bit of a diagonal-more short left to long right, whereas the 2nd at GCGC is short right to long left.  Is the green pad and shape of putting surface more circular in nature? 

Given what you said above, it seems like you're calling to test the player's short iron shot here, without necessarily being a template short hole in its atypical form found on most Raynor courses. 

[Mark Hissey]

From what I am reading here, could the predecessor to Nassau, the Queens County Club, have been a nine hole course situated on the site of North Shore, and then it moved to Nassau's current location and then changed names?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I visited North Shore last week on a beautiful fall day for the first time since my discovery of the Raynor provenance.

Even though there was a 2" overnight rain, the course was in excellent post aeration condition and the greens,new or old, maintained their character and speed. The green complexes were outstanding,whether Doak or Raynor, from the Punchbowl to the Redan  to the Eden to the Short to the Biarritz,etc. I might add that Short was quite a diabolical green. My tour guide, the caddiemaster, Mike Butler, has been at North Shore for 17 years and has witnessed the transformation produced by Mr. Zucker, the new owner, and executed by Tom Doak and his crew. The new 16, Ravine, is a terrific 5par. The 4pars  at 2 ,Sahara and 7, Bandon, are driveable for the big hitters and 3, Road, 14, Double Plateau, are all excellent.

The only untouchedl holes are 10, Eden and 11, Hilltop. Both are very good holes. 11 green was quite slick.

Did anyone notice the plateau on the 4th hole fairway?  It looks like a former green. I'll post a picture later.

The amenities are excellent- the club house main dining room overlooks a marina and beach,the grill room, the cabins and lodge for overnight and longer visits, the fitness center, the indoor golf facility and the pro shop.

The hospitality provided by the staff was exemplary.

North Shore is located in a very competitive market and the work in progress of the Doak version of Raynor will stand up to the highly rated competition. The club deserves the attribution of a "special place." I was very impressed.

[Tom MacWood]

I think one could argue the previous architectural high point of the course was the early twenties when the course hosted the 1919 Metropolitan Open and the 1920 US Amateur. That course was a combination of Emmet, Raynor and White. Is this a restoration of that course or is this a Raynor inspired redesign?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom M,

To answer your question once again, I suggest that you review the previous thread cited by Joe Bausch in his original post on this thread. In particular, see Tom Doak's replies 913,915 & 919 to your questions then.

[Mark Hissey]

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F10A16FE3E5C11738DDDAC0A94DA415B8885F0D3

Interesting. I'm now beginning to wonder if the Queens County Club could have been a nine hole course located on the grounds of the current North Shore. Then it moved closer to Glen Cove and became Nassau CC. The old site of the Queens County Club could then have been purchased by the Crescent Club who made it into Glenwood with Emmet on the job and they then expanded it to eighteen.

[Tom MacWood]

TD
I go back to my original question, when your work is done what architects should get credit for the final product?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom M:

I honestly don't know who all should get credit for North Shore.  I'm pretty sure Raynor should be on there, and I guess I should be now, too.  I don't know if anybody else should qualify or not -- other than the general observation that there are not many golf courses where more than two architects get much credit, due to space restrictions in magazines and due to magazine writers and editors trying to simplify things for their readers.

I'm not even sure where to put the course on our own web site, so I haven't, yet.  It's not really an original design, but it was a lot more complicated than most of the work we've done for our consulting clients, because it wasn't a restoration.  We didn't make quite as many changes as we did at Atlantic City CC, though.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's the 4th fairway with a plateau about 140y from the green. Could be an Emmett greenspace.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom M:

I honestly don't know who all should get credit for North Shore.  I'm pretty sure Raynor should be on there, and I guess I should be now, too.  I don't know if anybody else should qualify or not -- other than the general observation that there are not many golf courses where more than two architects get much credit, due to space restrictions in magazines and due to magazine writers and editors trying to simplify things for their readers.

I'm not even sure where to put the course on our own web site, so I haven't, yet.  It's not really an original design, but it was a lot more complicated than most of the work we've done for our consulting clients, because it wasn't a restoration.  We didn't make quite as many changes as we did at Atlantic City CC, though.

TD
I believe I did question your work at ACCC, and your changes at SFGC and Pasatiempo, and some of the things you did and didn't do at GCGC. You are a very talented golf architect, and I was always impressed when you emphasized the times your mentor Dye told old clubs, some of them relatively unknown at the time, the best thing they could do is nothing. Perhaps I'm being unfair based on current circumstances, but I still believe that preservation, protection, and some minimal restoration is the best way to go.

[Mark Hissey]

Somebody mentioned the architect of the Queens County Club, can you please repeat it? Many thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

Is Queens CC the former name of Nassau CC?

[Tom_Doak]

TD
I believe I did question your work at ACCC, and your changes at SFGC and Pasatiempo, and some of the things you did and didn't do at GCGC. You are a very talented golf architect, and I was always impressed when you emphasized the times your mentor Dye told old clubs, some of them relatively unknown at the time, the best thing they could do is nothing. Perhaps I'm being unfair based on current circumstances, but I still believe that preservation, protection, and some minimal restoration is the best way to go.

Tom:

I can't let that one slip by without comment.  It's as full of misinformation as anything you've written here.

We haven't done ANYTHING but preservation and restoration at San Francisco Golf Club or at Pasatiempo.  Pasatiempo has a bylaw that no work can be done to the course other than restorative work.  And our work to SFGC was also restorative, though it was more controversial, since we were changing back three holes that had been changed in 1947 and which many members accepted as part of the course.  There were also arguments about some small details of the three older holes, but we did the best we could with all the photos we could find.  I didn't try to add any of my own ideas in either place.

Atlantic City and North Shore were a different story.  In each case, a new, private owner bought the course and wanted changes for a variety of reasons. 

I've always had some reservations about changing Atlantic City -- I still don't like to make changes to old work if it's highly regarded.  I justified it on the basis that I thought the old course was somewhat overrated and not the best example of Flynn's work, and on the certainty that it WAS going to get changed by some architect, because the owner was determined to make changes.  You can knock me for that one if you want.  But did you see it before and after?

For North Shore, I had fewer qualms.  In fact, I can't believe there is much of an argument to be made on your side.  The course was ignored for years and years, and it was bankrupt.  I am pretty sure it would have continued to fail had we refused to change it on principle.  The membership that lost it had been trying to "restore" it for a few years, without attracting any attention or any new members -- partly because they ran a terrible business, but also because the course wasn't that great.  It's hard to attract new members to a Raynor course when there are a couple of much better Raynor courses within five miles!  There were some cool features -- all but one of which we kept -- but there were also a stretch of boring or awkward holes, which couldn't easily be fixed because they were designed for 180-yard tee shots in 1914, and there was no room to put the tees back 60 yards.  It was a case of adapt, or die.


I don't know anyone in my business who is more in sync with you about the merits of preserving great old golf courses.  However, we differ on the merits of preserving fair-to-good old golf courses.  I only see the merit in preserving the best ones.  You never saw North Shore, that I'm aware, so I don't know how you would make the case that it was really that great.  I've restored a lot of Raynor courses, and seen a lot more of them, and North Shore was the least interesting of the bunch.  It's better now.  Much better, actually.

[Joe Bausch]

Somebody mentioned the architect of the Queens County Club, can you please repeat it? Many thanks.

Mark, from a lurker:

I did some digging on Queens County Golf Club the other night.
 
It was really the first prominent Gold Coast course, and the scene of a lot of big early tournaments, even at nine holes.
 
It seems Mr. Pratt had Tom Bendelow design it (his first) on his estate, and it opened in October 1895.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's a  pic of the Nassau CC clubhouse:


The original club was located at Crescent Beach Road and Woolsey Avenue and was known as Queens County Golf Club. It was relocated in 1899 and the name changed to Nassau Country Club.

From the book Glen Cove by Joan Harrison in the Images of America series.

Mark,

Is North Shore located anywhere near Crescent Beach Road and Woolsey Avenue in Glen Cove?

[Joe Bausch]

Here is the pic Steve desires (you darn PC users struggling with pictures!):

[Steve_ Shaffer]

That club house must be very expensive to maintain.

Nassau CC will host the 2014 US Women's Am.

Sorry, I don't have an  APPLE.

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