[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

I have to disagree about 14 at Huntsville.  I'm not sure how they could expand that little pie-pan they've created as the bail out option down in the valley.  It doesn't seem that there's a lot of flat land available, and turning the slope around there into fairway doesn't seem doable either, because I think balls would just settle in the bottom basin, which might be preferrable to getting hung up in the rough, but would still be a field of divots.  

The trees on the left are silly and should go.  

Actually, given the amount of earth moved on the course, I have a hard time believing that the approach hillside couldn't have been graded to a more acceptable where a lot of different options could have been considered.  As it stands, and although I have to give Rees points for trying something different, it doesn't work at all and is the low point on a good course, otherwise.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I really don't know what they could do in that valley on #14 Huntsville. I really didn't look at the topography down there when I last played the course maybe five or six years ago. I'd already played the course a number of times before I even noticed it was down there and when I did I thought it was really odd it was so so small.

Do you think it would be difficult to fill down there some and make it bigger?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Boy, that's a good question.  I'm wondering if that was impossible due to the environmental zone that sits just before it, and is almost at the same elevation.  I guess what I was thinking is that the higher left side should be graded downward somewhat, creating more fill on the right, but with the hazard down there, I'm not sure what they could or couldn't move.  

Still, it doesn't work well as presently configured, and I agree that getting those trees out of the way is the first thing that should be tried.  Beyond that, it's a "split fairway" with no real options.

[Matt_Ward]

BillV:

You're absolutely right about the 13th at Desert Highlands. The hole plays 396 yards from the tips and is -- last I can remember - the #2 handicap hole at the club.

The drive present two clear options. You can play safe to the left with just about any club you choose. If you venture down the right side you must carry a gigantic waste area. This waste area is not easy to carry, especially when wind is blowing in on the player. The carry, I'm guessing, must be more than 275 yards from the back markers and is quite narrow with major trouble left and right.

If you take the easy route you face an angled approach across a deep bunker that is quite high to catch any weak effort. The gain from the right is simply -- you get a much easier direct approach of less than 100 yards.

A great design effort by Nicklaus and one of the best of it's kind for a hole that is less than 400 yards from the tips.

[BillV]

Matt

Another cool thing about 13 Desert Highlands is hte blindnesss of the landing area right due to its (gasp, for Jack) elevation above the teeing area.  This blindness similarily seen in a different way on the left fairway at Royce Brook 4W is a nice uncertainty/anxiety production in the player that I like, no instant gratification seeing the ball (Unfortunately it must therefore be doomed in modern architecture).

Back to 14 Huntsville, the use of the land there confounds me as normally if I see an area that was tough for the architect, I usually have an idea, but there even cutting down the trees doesn't do much.  Maybe the hole as a short par 4 with an orphan green followed by a rare uphill par 3 on that side and then the other par 5 on the clubhouse side of the road may have been the answer.  Considering how good the first 10 or arguably 13 holes are at Huntsville, it is a shame that it finishes the way it does.  It caused me to forget just how good the start was until I played it a second time. (As it is I have no real problem with any hole from 15 on in as it now exists, but I think there must have been some options, maybe a 3 par 11th somehow on the clubhouse side would have also helped, but 14 and the land it covers is still the constraint there.

Difficult.

[John Foley]

Hera's a few thoughts.

#1 at Kingsley. One of the great opening tee shot's I've ever played. it may be the single best shot on the course vis-a-vis the startegy, the vista & the feeling. You must be careful going right though, With out a draw the fairway comes in a little and you can get caught up in the rough with a sidehill/downhill lie. Very tough.

#4 Royce Brook West. From the left side the hole seems to play so much easier. The shot to that side also seems not to be that difficult. I thought it might actually be a little shorter?

#15 WW-Pine barrens. OK all you Fazio bashers. I loved this hole. Might be in my top 10 that I've played. Could this be Fazio's most strategic hole?
The top side while a very safe shot leaves the green at a more difficult angle w/ the approach downhill. If I remeber right, unless you hug the right side of the fairway you may be partially blind to the pin? The right side taking a driver at the hole is soo tempting and not too difficult to pull of. However, Come over the top a little and your in the deep sand/waste area. The best thing I love about the hole is where it falls in the routing. Think of a match and #15 is if your down it's time to make a bold move and if your up it's time to put a nail in the coffin. #15 is a great place to put a great risk/reward hole. I  love that strech of holes #14-16. An incredibly strong par 5, the IMHO a world class driveable par 4 and a very good long par 3.

[Matt_Ward]

John F:

You're absolutely right about the 1st at Kingsley. The wind dictates the type of strategy you can use. When the wind is blowing in your face you had best be sure the angle of attack you can make.

When I played the course this past July the wind on #1 was slightly helping and carrying the fairway bunker with a draw was not overly difficult but the elements of risk are always present if you should push or pull the tee shot.

Agree completely -- one of the great opening tee shots you can play -- plenty of strategy and a true eye-opener. Really gets the blood started on a course that is never boring.

[redanman (Guest)]

I played 15 WWPB 3 times the day I played there (I played about 60 holes that day-ALL day both courses and jumping around in a cart, returning it inthe dark) and hit maybe 15-20 tee shots and came away much less impressed than with 13 at Desert Highlands. That may be Jack's best hole.

my opinion

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