[Kalen Braley]

  Would you take the job if they offered it to you Tom?

  Anthony

Anthony:

Yes, I would.  It would be a once-in-a-lifetime situation, and I like to participate in those.  But I would be vary wary of all the politics involved.  And I haven't pursued the project because I think it's too much of a political football; the decision will likely be based not on merit but on politics.  Politics just aren't my thing.

Tom,

Thats easily solved...just hire Anthony to be your PR/front man.  He'll take care of all the road-blocks for you so you can focus on the design and build aspects of the project! 

[Mike Benham]

I think that is the dumbest idea that I have ever heard re: golf course design.  

You are correct but this idea has absolutely nothing to do with golf course design or introducing GCA to the world.

It is the Olympics, they are trying to provide events that will sell the most tickets, provide the most advertising revenue, drive up the TV-rights deal.

Any organization that can fill a 100,000 seat stadium for 12-days of track meets, can build a golf course that has no discernible GCA value but will seat 30,000 paying fans per hole and have plenty of camera angles to broadcast the action to the world.

 

[Randy Thompson]

There is a pretty lagoon at the bottom end, but there could be some major environmental setbacks from it.

I never imagined that brazil would have major environmental laws. 

David,
Multiply California enviromental regulations times ten and you get Brazil. IMO you have educated professionals in California that take there jobs seriously and want to protect the enviroment but they can be educated and you can work with them somewhat. In Brazil, there cousins of some damn politician that know nothing and won´t approve anything just in case somewhere somehow there could be some hidden element that may effect the enviroment. There is room and demand for a minimum of twenty five courses tomorrow in Brazil but getting the proper approvals is almost impossible.

[David_Elvins]

Thanks Randy,  that's very interesting.

[Randy Thompson]

Here is my suggestion.  Give the project to Pete Dye and ask him to use the services of every person that has learned from him  - all under his direction.  That would include Coore, Doak and others. I think even Jack would be involved if it was for Mr. Dye.  It would be an honor to a man that has done a lot for the profession at the end of his career.

Micheal,
What you say is logical and if coordinated properly would be a wonderful gesture to a man that has done so much for golf and golf course architecture. Such common sense will disqualify you from ever participating in one these future committees.

[Mike Hamilton]

I just returned from another trip to Brazil and continue to wonder why it isn't ripe for a golf boom.  As noted above, development in Brazil does have pretty significant and somewhat surprising environmental hurdles these days so that may be a factor...but the economy appears to be in better shape than around these parts, there is a growing upper and middle class, and the year round climate in many regions is great (especially now, their winter).

Regardless of who does the course, hopefully it will spur a greater interest in the sport there.

[John_Conley]

John Daly has won two Major championships and designed something called Wicked Stick.  Sir Nick is right, this is going to generate a lot of interest.

Didn't Lanny Wadkins win a PGA?  Brauer!  He's getting a share of this job for sure!

[Lou_Duran]

If I am reading Tom Doak correctly, because the site is flat it is not good, and a techincally superior routing won't make much of a difference.  It is a curious perspective that appears to run counter to intuition and the opinions of a number of architects I've talked with.  I was under the impression that most architects prefer a moderately rolling, rectangular site that allows more creativity and ease of construction over one whose elevations tend to dictate the location of holes and positioning of major design features (greens, hazards, tees), absent a Fazio-size budget.

Lou:

What do you mean by a "technically superior routing" ?  Are you just talking about varying the holes in terms of distance and direction on paper?  Almost anybody here could do that, I think.

My idea of a good site is one that gives you a lot of features to utilize in the design.  It doesn't have to be hills -- it could be trees, water hazards, little abrupt elevation changes, small ripples, etc.

I mean a routing that incorporates the best features of the land while minimizing the distances between greens and subsequent tees, varies the length and directions of the holes while taking into consideration prevailing winds to provide challenge and variety, and takes into account logistics, operations, and maintenance.  Even I could set stakes and route a course.  I don't pretend to "possess the necessities" to devise a technically superior routing.

If you care to, I would enjoy your perspectives on routing Rawls on a flat, rectangular piece of heavy cotton land in contrast to the same process at Pacific Dunes on sand with superior natural contours, elevation changes, and vistas.  My first impression is that doing Rawls, an excellent course on a site that was very ordinary, was more technically difficult from a routing standpoint.  Am I wrong?  

[Lou_Duran]

I just returned from another trip to Brazil and continue to wonder why it isn't ripe for a golf boom.  As noted above, development in Brazil does have pretty significant and somewhat surprising environmental hurdles these days so that may be a factor...but the economy appears to be in better shape than around these parts, there is a growing upper and middle class, and the year round climate in many regions is great (especially now, their winter).

Regardless of who does the course, hopefully it will spur a greater interest in the sport there.

Mike,

Culture.  Why does soccer not thrive in the U.S., even with such large Hispanic populations?

I wonder how big the middle class really is in Brazil and how much the real wealth is concentrated.  Do wealthy Brazilians embrace golf?

[Mike Hamilton]

I just returned from another trip to Brazil and continue to wonder why it isn't ripe for a golf boom.  As noted above, development in Brazil does have pretty significant and somewhat surprising environmental hurdles these days so that may be a factor...but the economy appears to be in better shape than around these parts, there is a growing upper and middle class, and the year round climate in many regions is great (especially now, their winter).

Regardless of who does the course, hopefully it will spur a greater interest in the sport there.

Mike,

Culture.  Why does soccer not thrive in the U.S., even with such large Hispanic populations?

I wonder how big the middle class really is in Brazil and how much the real wealth is concentrated.  Do wealthy Brazilians embrace golf?

Lou,

First, I'd argue that soccer is thriving in the US.  I don't have statistics, but would be surprised if the number of youth playing soccer today is less than football, etc.  Whatever the numbers, it's big change from when I was my childrens age...I don't think Charlotte had youth leagues for the game 40 years ago.  At the pro level it hasn't caught up in terms of money or fans....but my guess is it will continue to narrow the gap as all today's kids grow up.

As to Brazil, based on some of the posts, I think there is a lot of misunderstanding.   Brazil, in total, has the fifth largest population and is in the Top 10 countires in the world in GDP.  Estimates I've read suggest that over 50% of the population there should be considered middle class.  Since GDP per capita is only about one-fourth of the US, that means the middle class still has less spending power...but I've seen projections that Brazil will continue to grow in total GDP to be in the Top 5 over the next several decades.

I've read there are some 100 or maybe 200 golf courses there (That means they've almost caught Myrtle Beach).  I've spend about three weeks there over the past two years and not sure I've even seen one.  So golf is not terribly popular.  Obviously trends within cultures have to have some spark and fuel to get going, and my post was to suggest that of places in the world you could expect to see golf take off, it seems to be one of the most likely....and maybe having golf there in the Olympics will provide some of the spark.

Look forward to seeing you in Virginia in a couple of months!

Mike

[Steve Okula]

There is a pretty lagoon at the bottom end, but there could be some major environmental setbacks from it.

I never imagined that brazil would have major environmental laws. 

David,
Multiply California enviromental regulations times ten and you get Brazil. IMO you have educated professionals in California that take there jobs seriously and want to protect the enviroment but they can be educated and you can work with them somewhat. In Brazil, there cousins of some damn politician that know nothing and won´t approve anything just in case somewhere somehow there could be some hidden element that may effect the enviroment. There is room and demand for a minimum of twenty five courses tomorrow in Brazil but getting the proper approvals is almost impossible.

Given that Brazil has strictly enforced environmental regulations, how is it that I hear about the Amazon rain forest being destroyed at a rate of thousands of acres per day due to farming and logging? Am I mis-informed?

[Mike Hamilton]

There is a pretty lagoon at the bottom end, but there could be some major environmental setbacks from it.

I never imagined that brazil would have major environmental laws.  

David,
Multiply California enviromental regulations times ten and you get Brazil. IMO you have educated professionals in California that take there jobs seriously and want to protect the enviroment but they can be educated and you can work with them somewhat. In Brazil, there cousins of some damn politician that know nothing and won´t approve anything just in case somewhere somehow there could be some hidden element that may effect the enviroment. There is room and demand for a minimum of twenty five courses tomorrow in Brazil but getting the proper approvals is almost impossible.

Given that Brazil has strictly enforced environmental regulations, how is it that I hear about the Amazon rain forest being destroyed at a rate of thousands of acres per day due to farming and logging? Am I mis-informed?

Quite frankly (and this is not intended to be a personal attack Steve, just my irritated response to certain perceptions), this is exactly the kind of ill-informed attitudes people have as a result of elitist environmental messaging.  As far as deforestation, from what I have read, the remaining Brazilian Amazon rainforest covers a vast area the size of about 40% of the continental US.  Due to increasing environmental laws the rate of deforestation has apparently fallen about 75% in the past several years and now losses are something like 0.1 or 0.2% a year.  While that in fact may be thousand of acres a day, I think its a bit smug to sit back and ignore the needs of developing country (much of which most know little about) and suggest that an area that size is totally off limits.

I have a Brazilian employee and we do quite a bit of business there.  I have worked with environmental regulations in the US with regards to manufacturing and on my last trip there spent time discussing Brazilian regulations with customers.  And they are indeed becoming very, very strict.  

Brazil is a great place with great people who from my observations are in fact very sensitive to these issues despite the hardships they present.  Maybe our elitist attitudes should be a little more informed.

[Lou_Duran]

Brazil is a great place with great people who from my observations are in fact very sensitive to these issues despite the hardships they present.  Maybe our elitist attitudes should be a little more informed.

Hear, hear!

The hypocrisy of the NIMBYs and the environmental left is inexcusable, not only because their per-capita consumption miniscules that of those terribly afflicted by their prejudices, but because, as a whole, they are typically much better educated and, therefore, should be aware of the largely incompassionate, regressive consequences of their activism.

As I noted on another thread, I was in a hotel in Austin, TX last week that hosted a large conference dealing with the law and the environment.  The place was hopping.  The participants were lawyers, regulators, government folks, NGOs and "the affected".  This was no LaQuinta, and according to the concierge, the attendees weren't eating at Rudy's or drinking from the lower shelves.  No doubt that first-class and private aviation did very well that week.  Perhaps some assuage their conscience with a voluntary carbon tax payment or a donation to an organization which promises to plant trees in the Amazon (I wonder if these ever get audited).

My son travels to Brazil a couple times each year and loves the place so much that he'd like to live there for awhile some day.  He believes that it is on a great track economically, and with the energy, the optimism, and warmth of the people, as well as its great natural resources, the country has fantastic potential.  I hope that the government is able to find the proper balance with development and the effective care for the environment so both people and nature can prosper.  Anyone who has traveled can't help to note the direct link between economic development and the condition of the environment.     

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

In the way shown on TV today, Invalid. As a way to get himself and Fazio the job, Valid. No One thinks there will be 18 different holes. The work at Old Mac shows a team can have a good final product given someone is there to balance out thoughts and make final calls.

[Steve Okula]

There is a pretty lagoon at the bottom end, but there could be some major environmental setbacks from it.

I never imagined that brazil would have major environmental laws.  

David,
Multiply California enviromental regulations times ten and you get Brazil. IMO you have educated professionals in California that take there jobs seriously and want to protect the enviroment but they can be educated and you can work with them somewhat. In Brazil, there cousins of some damn politician that know nothing and won´t approve anything just in case somewhere somehow there could be some hidden element that may effect the enviroment. There is room and demand for a minimum of twenty five courses tomorrow in Brazil but getting the proper approvals is almost impossible.

Given that Brazil has strictly enforced environmental regulations, how is it that I hear about the Amazon rain forest being destroyed at a rate of thousands of acres per day due to farming and logging? Am I mis-informed?

Quite frankly (and this is not intended to be a personal attack Steve, just my irritated response to certain perceptions), this is exactly the kind of ill-informed attitudes people have as a result of elitist environmental messaging.  As far as deforestation, from what I have read, the remaining Brazilian Amazon rainforest covers a vast area the size of about 40% of the continental US.  Due to increasing environmental laws the rate of deforestation has apparently fallen about 75% in the past several years and now losses are something like 0.1 or 0.2% a year.  While that in fact may be thousand of acres a day, I think its a bit smug to sit back and ignore the needs of developing country (much of which most know little about) and suggest that an area that size is totally off limits.

I have a Brazilian employee and we do quite a bit of business there.  I have worked with environmental regulations in the US with regards to manufacturing and on my last trip there spent time discussing Brazilian regulations with customers.  And they are indeed becoming very, very strict.  

Brazil is a great place with great people who from my observations are in fact very sensitive to these issues despite the hardships they present.  Maybe our elitist attitudes should be a little more informed.

Mike,
I apologize if I came across with an « attitude ». I have never been to Brazil, so I only know what I read and hear about it. My post was meant purely as a request for information to clarify my understanding. I have no intention at all of disparaging the people there.

[Mike Hamilton]

There is a pretty lagoon at the bottom end, but there could be some major environmental setbacks from it.

I never imagined that brazil would have major environmental laws.  

David,
Multiply California enviromental regulations times ten and you get Brazil. IMO you have educated professionals in California that take there jobs seriously and want to protect the enviroment but they can be educated and you can work with them somewhat. In Brazil, there cousins of some damn politician that know nothing and won´t approve anything just in case somewhere somehow there could be some hidden element that may effect the enviroment. There is room and demand for a minimum of twenty five courses tomorrow in Brazil but getting the proper approvals is almost impossible.

Given that Brazil has strictly enforced environmental regulations, how is it that I hear about the Amazon rain forest being destroyed at a rate of thousands of acres per day due to farming and logging? Am I mis-informed?

Quite frankly (and this is not intended to be a personal attack Steve, just my irritated response to certain perceptions), this is exactly the kind of ill-informed attitudes people have as a result of elitist environmental messaging.  As far as deforestation, from what I have read, the remaining Brazilian Amazon rainforest covers a vast area the size of about 40% of the continental US.  Due to increasing environmental laws the rate of deforestation has apparently fallen about 75% in the past several years and now losses are something like 0.1 or 0.2% a year.  While that in fact may be thousand of acres a day, I think its a bit smug to sit back and ignore the needs of developing country (much of which most know little about) and suggest that an area that size is totally off limits.

I have a Brazilian employee and we do quite a bit of business there.  I have worked with environmental regulations in the US with regards to manufacturing and on my last trip there spent time discussing Brazilian regulations with customers.  And they are indeed becoming very, very strict.  

Brazil is a great place with great people who from my observations are in fact very sensitive to these issues despite the hardships they present.  Maybe our elitist attitudes should be a little more informed.

Mike,
I apologize if I came across with an « attitude ». I have never been to Brazil, so I only know what I read and hear about it. My post was meant purely as a request for information to clarify my understanding. I have no intention at all of disparaging the people there.

Steve,

I didn't really believe that was your intent...that's why I noted I didn't want my post to be taken as personal...but still felt like I should respond.

Thanks!
Mike

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