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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Where do YOU play?
« on: January 25, 2002, 07:53:29 PM »
You are an avid golfer, love to study great golf architecture and just won a dream golf trip - Two days each in L.A., San Francisco, Chicago, Philadelphia, New York and Boston.  Two rounds in each area, fourteen rounds total, any course you want to play.  

You've never played golf in any of these places before.  

Where do YOU play?  

Side bet - NOBODY picks a course that these "questionable" magazine lists haven't yet identified.  Any takers   :)

For those skeptics, pick three or four courses in each area and add in a few more cities that you'd like to visit on this trip!  


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2002, 09:00:15 PM »
I've never played golf in America before, so this has some relevance.

Los Angeles
LACC North
Riviera
San Francisco
SFGC
Olympic
Chicago
Chicago GC
Medinah#3
Philidelphia
Merion
Pine Valley too much of a detour???
New York
NGLA
Shinnecock Hills
Boston
not sure about courses in Boston

I'm a sceptic, so add the Monterey Peninsula:
Cypress
Pebble
Spyglass
Spanish Bay
Poppy Hills
MPCC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2002, 10:20:20 PM »
Boston: The Country Club, Myopia Hunt Club, NY: National Golf Links, Shinneock Hills, Philadelphia: Merion, Pine Valley.
Chicago: Shoreacres, Medinah, GO south to Seminole by way of Augusta National and stay till one is told to leave at the end of the season. Stray to Sand Hills for a week or two. I am the sort to finsh in carmel so lets go to LA and enjoy the hospitality of LACC north and Valley Club. then to SF: SFGC, Olympic Lake. Finish up at Peble and finally a few days in the clubhouse at Cypress playing 36 a day. Life can be so good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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APBernstein

Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2002, 11:22:15 PM »
Los Angeles:  LACC (North) and Riviera

San Francisco: Cypress Point and SFGC

Chicago: Chicago GC and Beverly (as well as Shoreacres)

Philadelphia: Pine Valley and Merion

New York: Garden City and NGLA (as well as Winged Foot [East and West], Shinnecock, Baltusrol [Upper and Lower], Westchester, Quaker Ridge, etc. - it's impossible to pick just a few.)

Boston: The Country Club and Essex County

I assume I could have picked a few more obscure courses, such as Gulph Mills, Maidstone, etc.  Obviously, I have seen/played very few of the courses I listed, but from all that I have heard and seen in pictures, these are pretty definitive answers.  As for other "cities"...

North Carolina: Charlotte CC and Pinehurst #2

Tennessee: The Honors Course and Holston Hills

Charleston, SC: Yeamans Hall and Kiawah (Ocean)

Hilton Head, SC: Harbour Town and Chechessee Creek

Alright, at this point, I figure I have gone a bit overboard.  But then again, is that possible when it comes to golf...?

All the best,

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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you sir! name

Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2002, 01:37:26 AM »
LA-LA

Griffith Park
Strawberry Farms

Frisco

Gleneagles
Golden Gate Park

Chicago

Jackson Park
Waveland

Philadelphia

Jeffersonville
Valley Forge

New York

Van Cortland
Saxony Woods

Boston

Evergreen Valley
Kelley Greens

Monterrey

Del Monte
Peter Hay


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2002, 05:08:39 AM »
Hope some of you who didn't respond got the message I was trying to get across.  Chris, John and Andrew would all be accused by some as "collectors" or trophy hunters.  Surely they are not out to see great architecture, they are just trying to play all the famous courses on those misguided lists!  Why didn't they pick Squires for example in Philadelphia, one of George Fazio's first designs?  They had to go right to Merion didn't they.  And why didn't they check out The Peninsula Club in San Francisco, one of the only Donald Ross courses on the West Coast?  No they went right for Olympic or SFGC.  

So much for targeting some new courses or the so called "hidden gems"!

Maybe this post will help those who constantly complain about the ratings and even the raters themselves, realize that they would do the same thing if they were in their shoes.  What they also might begin to realize is that these guys are not out there just playing these "name" courses, they are out there checking out courses like Frog Heaven Golf Club and Larry's Links located in some God forsaken place all on their own time and on their own nickel!  

They are the guys out there who will go check out Rustic Canyon, or Notre Dame, or Pacific Dunes or Pine Hill,...and see you just how good or not so good they really are.  Sorry to say, the golf world isn't flocking to GCA to find out where they should plan to play golf when they make their next golf trip.  A few of us might be, but that's it.  

Mark

  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian andrew (Guest)

Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2002, 06:30:43 AM »
Go to Columbus Ohio!

Scarlett Course-Ohio State, Mackenzie
The Golf Club, Dye
Muirfield Village, someone named Jack
Sciotto, Ross, Wilson(re)
Double Eagle, Weisguy and Morrish

All this and more I just don't know in a very beautiful city
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2002, 07:19:23 AM »
What a thankless job rating golf courses must be. To have to go and play dog tracks like Pac Dunes, ND, et al.

I honestly don't understand why any self-respecting person would willingly submit themselves to this torture.

()
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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APBernstein

Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2002, 09:39:18 AM »
MarK:

Why would I go to Philadelphia and play anywhere else other than Merion considering I haven't played there?  Why go to San Francisco and not play SFGC when I haven't played there?

The point I am trying to make is for my case, I have to play the overt gems before getting to those that are "hidden".

All the best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2002, 10:34:31 AM »
Mark_Fine:

Where is it written that avid golfers are SUPPOSED to target new courses or hidden gems?  Why were respondents supposed to answer a certain way?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2002, 10:57:46 AM »
Part of this post was to give Gib some grief  ;) for complaining about guys who "collect" courses.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2002, 11:11:28 AM »
Chipoat,
They weren't supposed to answer a certain way.  I just questioned how many guys here if given the chance to play say Somerset Hills and Plainfield would opt to replace one of those rounds with say Royce Brook just to see if it is a real "hidden gem" or a potentially great new design?  My feeling was NONE would do so if they hadn't already played those two courses before.  

Raters must do that or the new courses would never get rated and the "hidden gems" we like to talk about would take years to get discovered!  

Heck why should a rater go play Running Deer (who is Ed Carman) when they can go play Merion or Huntingdon Valley  ;)  Get my point!

SPDB,
I'm not complaining one bit, I just want people to realize these guys aren't only playing the Pacific Dunes of this world.  
Mark

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2002, 01:45:51 PM »
Mark,

I refute your allegation in its entirety!

I live in Australia.  I have never been to the United States before, let alone played golf there.

If there are hidden gems, I have no way of knowing about them.  Anyway, wouldn't it be better to play the trophy courses first, and then play the hidden gems with a truer understanding about what great American architecture is?

Every day I see numerous posts with analysis of the courses I listed.  If I had the chance to play them, I would do so ahead of any hidden gem.  If only to actually understand what is being said here.

If the couse rating game is to slightly resemble fairness, raters must have played the trophy courses before the hidden gems, in order to make a comparison.

If you were making a golf trip to an area you knew nothing about, except knowing the names and architects of its great courses, would you bypass those greats in order to play a hidden gem you'd never heard of before?  Would you then feel qualified to talk with authority about the great courses in that area?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2002, 02:35:18 PM »
I agree with Mark Fine that most people will opt for the "big name" courses because they are so well known and if time is a consideration it's a a no-brainer that someone will opt for Merion before heading down to Cobbs Creek!!!

I agree with Mark that if you really love golf and after you have sampled a number of big time courses you will also want to see what else is out there in the golifng universe.

I personally love to play "new" courses of all different types. Thanks Mark in mentioning Running Deer because it fits the descriptiom perfectly. The same holds true for Twisted Dune near AC since so many people would probably tee it up first at Galloway National, ACCC or Seaview.

People with passion for golf don't just want to "trophy collect" courses. I want to see sometimes particular holes on courses even if that respective course does not have an all-star grouping of 18 holes.

Heck, I've been playing Bethpage Black and all the other color combinations before many people on GCA even knew the facility had more than one course. I wonder how many people have ventured over to the Red and Blue courses at Bethpage?Both are well done -- especially the Red.

When I'm on the road I always ask key local people the $64 million question -- "where do you play." The answer to that is not always the highly publicized layouts you see posted in just about any magazine.

I'm not saying the locals are always right, but I'm always interested in hearing the answer to that question and checking them out -- you can certainly find surprises provided you keep your eyes and mind open. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2002, 03:43:10 PM »
Chris,
We are on the same page almost entirely.  However, I wonder if Gib would agree  ???

I have always said, if you haven't seen the best, how can you rate the best?  That is the biggest flaw with course rankings but there is no easy solution to the problem.  There are just too many courses to play!  But you grin and bear it and just keep trying to play as many as you can ;)
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2002, 04:42:29 PM »
I am with Andrew, if I went to Philadelphia I would play Pine Valley and Merion.  Not because I had any desire to cross 2 of the top 100.

I would play them because they are among the great courses people I trust have played.  Not because they are ranked 1 and 10, or whatever.  As for Pine Hill, I have heard fine things about it, but it is not Pine Valley by any arguments I have heard.  I would always choose the best course I could, once I am through those I will start to look at the hidden gems.

If you have limited times in areas of the world, why not try (or dream) of playing the best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2002, 05:00:22 PM »
Mark,

I am assuming that you asking about courses that generally speaking are not ranked in anyone's Top 100 lists (Golf, Golf Digest, Golfweek).  That being said, it does become a little difficult, but here's my best shot.

Philadelphia:
Lehigh
Bidermann
Medford Village (Honourable Mention)
(I'm under the impression that Manufacturers, Huntington Valley, and Rolling Green are all rated by Golfweek)

Boston:
Whitinsville (as many 9s as I can get away with)
Oyster Harbors

New York:
Century
Deepdale
Old Oaks

Chicago:
Beverly
Rich Harvest Links

South Florida:
Mayacoo Lakes
Hawk's Nest

Eastern Tenn:
Cherokee
Lookout Mountain (Ga., but who's counting)

Baltimore:
Woodholme
Beechtree
Green Spring Valley Hunt Club

Washington D. C.:
Chevy Chase
Columbia

Pittsburgh:
Rolling Rock
Pittsburgh Field Club
Allegheny

Play any of these courses and you'll find some interesting golf, eclectic architecture, and no trophy seekers (and in Deepdale and Bidermann's case, probably no one at all)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2002, 07:35:35 PM »
LA:  Sherwood and Bel-Air
SF:  SFCC and Cypress Point, Stanford if that's too far
Chi: Chicago Golf and Old Elm
Phil: Pine Valley and Merion (But I'd ask to stay longer!)
NY:  Shinnecock and National, with apologies to Creek
Boston:  Salem and Charles River

Better question... can you arrange this for me?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2002, 06:32:16 AM »
Mark - interesting exercise.

You really call Peninsula CC a Ross course?  I'd have to say even the most strident member would admit there's very little Ross there....

Thus I have no problems with the visitor to our area opting for SFGC and Olympic, especially if he hasn't played such yet.  Those are indeed hidden gems to those who haven't seen them, no matter what any magazine says.

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2002, 06:40:29 AM »
Tom,
You won't know what Ross is there until you've played it right?  Ross is credited with the design.  

You're right, they are all hidden gems to those who haven't played them.  Tell Gib not to give you grief the next time you're back this way and opt to play Winged Foot instead of some other less famous "hidden gem"  ;)
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Where do YOU play?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2002, 07:26:35 AM »
Seriously Mark, who credits Ross with the design there?  I honestly thought the club gave up even saying that.  Tommy N. once posted a pic here of the plan for what was then known as the "Beresford" club and it is so completely unlike what is there today, if they are listing Ross as their course designer they could be sued for false advertising.  Or let's just say I wouldn't want to be the one who has to come up with that claim substantiation!

And my mentor Gib knows that there are still many "names" for me to see... Hell yes I'd opt for Winged Foot if the opportunity ever presented itself!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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