[DMoriarty]

Reportedly, mathematician Paul Erdos published more articles than any other mathematician in history.  A strange fellow with many eccentricities, Erdos made mathematics a social medium and he had little traditional social interaction outside of that construct.  He would read about a mathematician or scientist working on an interesting and difficult problem and would travel across the world, show up on their doorstep, and announce "my mind is open."  And then he would work with them until the problem was solved.   He was essentially homeless and relied on the good graces of his colleges to put him up.     Throughout his career he worked with everyone and became somewhat of the center of the mathematical universe, and also became the focal point from an early version of games like Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.  His friends started assigning what are still known as Erdos Numbers, with Erdos having been assigned the only zero.   Everyone with whom he collaborated received a Erdos Number of one.   Everyone with whom the "ones" collaborated had an Erdos number of two.   And so on.   According to Wikipedia, there are over 200,000 mathematicians and numerous scientists who have been assigned Erdos numbers and 90 percent of them have Erdos numbers of 8 or less. 

I thought it might be interesting in exploring the concept of Erdos Numbers for golf course designers.   But who should be the "zero" and what should be the connecting qualifier?   Collaboration?   Mentorship?

Let's say collaboration on a course, which stays consistent with the theme.   So who should be the "zero" or the Erdos?  I'd say Old Tom seems like he would be the best,  but I don't know enough about his collaborations to even start the ball rolling.    CBM would be my american example, but perhaps we should throw it open and have a contest.   

Which pre-WWII designer would make the best zero.   And by "best" I mean which one fits the most quality designers under the lowest numbers.   

Anyone have any suggestions or want to run with any particular designer for a while?   We can make up the rules as we go along. 

Ross might be a good one.  As might Travis (a CBM ONE) or Tillinghast (a CBM TWO.)   

[Ross Tuddenham]

Old Tom seems a good zero.

CBM attended St Andrews uni so I wonder if he met or was influenced by old tom in person?

A.W.T supposedly received lessons from old tom in the mid 1890's.

Would that make AWT and CBM erdos 1's?

[Tom_Doak]

Old Tom seems a good zero.

CBM attended St Andrews uni so I wonder if he met or was influenced by old tom in person?

A.W.T supposedly received lessons from old tom in the mid 1890's.

Would that make AWT and CBM erdos 1's?

Ross:

You should read a bit more about Macdonald.  He was too young to have a locker at the R & A, so his grandfather got him a locker in Old Tom Morris' shop.  And as he got more proficient at the game, he occasionally played in matches with Young Tom.  I think that would qualify him for an "erdos 1".


David:

This is an interesting concept, but really, a lot depends on what qualifies as a "connection".  For example, Tillinghast and Crump and Thomas were all golfing friends in Philadelphia, but would that make Tillie and Thomas connected, when [as far as I know] they never worked together?

I'm always happy to meet with other designers and share with them what we are doing, but some have a much stronger connection to me than others!

[Adam Clayman]

In this forum, it might be a more productive thread to use modern designers like Pete Dye, or, even take it step further, and use a great project manager like Dave Axland?

Since Erdos appears to show up on people's door steps, it's not like he was the lead designer. Thoughts?

[DMoriarty]

Ross,  Old Tom seems a good zero to me, but unfortunately I don't know much about his collaborations as design goes.   As Tom said, CBM had a locker in Old Tom's shop.    However, I don't know if either he or Tillie really qualify if we limit this to people who collaborated on the creation of a golf course.   

I had hoped that someone more versed in what Old Tom did as a gca and with whom would step in and fill it out, but no takers thus far. 
________________________________________________

Tom I agree with you that it all depends upon how we define the connection.   My thought was that we should leave it to actual collaboration on the design of an actual golf course, by that I mean that the two must have worked together in some capacity on the project and each contributed something to the design.   So some conversation or connection or meeting would not be enough. 

That said even with requiring colloboration the connection might not be particularly strong. For an example, Erdos and Hank Aaron were both given honorary degrees on the same day by the same university and both signed the same baseball.  Because they both signed the ball, Aaron has an Erdos number of 1.   

____________________________

Adam,  I think whether he was lead or not depended upon the project but I get the impression that he didn't care one way or another.   I think he saw collaboration as a essential tool for problem solving regardless of who was lead.

 You may be right that modern might work better, and I was thinking of Dye also, as so many seem to have worked with him at one point or another.   Someone like Axland might be interesting as well.   I am not well versed in everyone who works with everyone though so I will leave it to you or someone to try.   

If Pete Dye is zero, then who are the ONE's? 

 

[SL_Solow]

David,  To start with you can list (alphabetically) Bill Coore, Tom Doak, and Jack Nicklaus.

[Adam Clayman]

Add to that Jim Urbina and Pete's sons. Liddy(?)  Who else?

David, I'm not that privy to their work history, it's just an interesting trail, I'm sure. The Bunker Hill boys, Dan and Dave, are truly independent contractors. Although, I suspect Dave gets locked up for a number of projects at a time. I do know he worked on and is finishing up Cabot Links. I believe he told me that Whit is a good friend and he wanted to be on hand to make sure he got it all right. Of course it might have all been in jest, wondering how the hell he ended up in Nova Scotia working with Ben. Knowing Ben's negotiating skills, probably for less than what he could've made somewhere else. 

[Tom_Doak]

Partial list for Pete Dye:

Perry Dye
P.B. Dye
Bill Coore
Rod Whitman
Ben Crenshaw (at Austin Country Club)
myself
Jim Urbina
Eric Iverson
Don Placek
Lee Schmidt
Brian Curley
Tim Liddy
Bobby Weed
Jason McCoy
Greg Norman (at Medalist)
Jack Nicklaus
Tom Weiskopf (at The Golf Club)
Scott Pool
Ron Farris

And if those above are all 1's, there would have to be a hell of a lot of 2's.

Yet, while Pete mentored everyone on this list, there are not many who would claim they actually co=designed a course with him.  Pete was always the designer, the rest of us were just there to help get it built.


Adam:

Dan and Dave are independent contractors, but they have not really worked with that many different people, as far as I'm aware.  It's not like they go build courses for Tom Fazio -- although Jeff Bradley did build bunkers on a Dana Fry project or two.  Dave has known Rod from the days when Bill was a superintendent at Waterwood National, where I first met them, thirty years ago this summer.

[DMoriarty]

Tom

I think that building and shaping for Dye ought to count provided that the person went on to an actual design career (or had one previously.)  Perhaps we should limit it to those who have received a design credit at some point, even if before or after.  

Here is the list which is largely yours, plus a few additions I am not sure about. With the above limitation perhaps a few need to be removed?

Dye Number Zero
Pete Dye

Dye Number of One
Alice Dye
Perry Dye
P.B. Dye
Tom Doak
Bill Coore
Ben Crenshaw (Austin Country Club)
Jack Nicklaus (Harbor Town)
Greg Norman (the Medalist)
Tom Weiskopf (The Golf Club)
Don Placek
Brian Curley
Lee Schmidt
Ron Farris
Eric Iverson
John Harbottle, III
Butch Laporte
Tim Liddy
Jason McCoy
Scott Poole
David Postlewaite
Keith Sparkman
Jim Urbina
Bobby Weed
Rod Whitman
Abe Wilson

Who else has a Dye Number of One?  
Should any of those listed be removed?  

As for those with a Dye Number of Two, I'll throw out a few, but will need some help . . .

Dye Number of Two
Gil Hanse (Doak)
Dan Proctor (Coore)
Dave Axland (Coore)
Richard Zokol (Liddy)
Desmond Muirhead (Nicklaus)
Arnold Palmer (Nicklaus)
Tony Jacklin (Nicklaus)
Mike Devries (Doak)
Who else?

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, I was thinking of including all the people they (Dan & Dave) worked with, not really the leads so much, as the unsung heroes. Other guys, like Bruce, Brian, Eric, Don, Kye, Jeff, Jonathan, Ron,  etc. etc. I will admit, I may have bastardized David's intent, but so far, the info you've provided and David's list, is looking pretty cool.
Thanks.

 

[Mike_Young]

the way I read this thing I can start at zero.

Tom D  question.....your list above seems pretty accurate but from listening to various guys talk for thirty years...there seem to be a lot of guys that will say they worked for Dye or Nicklaus or some other name but in reality they may have been on the site for a few weeks and picked up a few sticks....for instance...I took two weeks vacation and hung around the Honors course in 1981 (approx) moving irrigation pipe and hauling sand for PB and then did the same type of thing at Atlanta National for PB....I think some people in the industry count that...
THEREFORE....I think length of service or something needs to be entered into the equation....

[DMoriarty]

Mike Young,

One reason I was thinking of trying to start with an old dead guy was to avoid the sort of issues you are talking about, although to be honest I have thought of a few of these issues there as well.  I thought the bigger problem might be on the other end of the spectrum where professionals stick their names on courses without ever having done anything.   For example I think the Lost Canyon's courses were supposed to be Dye and Couples, but I recall hearing that Couples joked about how the only thing he contributed was some advice on how to draw the yellow lines in the parking lot. 

I think if we are reasonable about the prospect it seems like an interesting exercise. 

Feel free to make yourself a Zero and go from there.  That might be interesting. 

[Garland Bayley]

the way I read this thing I can start at zero.

Tom D  question.....your list above seems pretty accurate but from listening to various guys talk for thirty years...there seem to be a lot of guys that will say they worked for Dye or Nicklaus or some other name but in reality they may have been on the site for a few weeks and picked up a few sticks....for instance...I took two weeks vacation and hung around the Honors course in 1981 (approx) moving irrigation pipe and hauling sand for PB and then did the same type of thing at Atlanta National for PB....I think some people in the industry count that...
THEREFORE....I think length of service or something needs to be entered into the equation....

But I believe you don't understand Erdos. He worked with guys figuratively picking up sticks sometimes, and if the result was published, they got their Erdos number 1.

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