[Tom_Doak]

Ed:

Like Chris, I would rate Crystal Downs ahead of Prairie Dunes.  That's one reason I don't live in Kansas.

The two courses are obviously close cousins.  I think Crystal Downs rates ahead of Prairie Dunes in several aspects, but principally that it has better par-5 holes and better par-4's, and especially distinctive short par-4's.

I have played the top twenty courses in the US and Prairie Dunes is legitimately in that group, just not at #1.

[Chris_Clouser]

Ed,

Pretty much what Tom says.  The par fives are a difference between the two.  But not that much.  Each course has a great par five in my mind, just the one at CD is world-class where the one at PD is just great.  The other par five at CD is much better.  PD has the better set of par threes in all.  CD's are all very good with only 11 bordering on great in my mind, where PD has 3 that are either great or better and a fourth that is very good.  PD might even be better on the long par fours.  But CD has it in spades on the short par fours.  I wonder if there is a course in the world that has a set like those at Crystal.  5,6,7, 15 and 17 comprise such a diverse set with different demands on the player that really seperates it from its Kansas cousin.  

[David Kelly]

I think Crystal Downs rates ahead of Prairie Dunes in several aspects, but principally that it has better par-5 holes and better par-4's, and especially distinctive short par-4's.

I agree that Crystal Downs  has the more distinctive short par 4s  - #3, #12, & #14 at Prairie Dunes don't match up as well with #5, #6, & #7 at CD.

However, I think that one of the biggest strengths of PD are the mid to long par 4s like, #1, #5, #6, especially #8 & #9, #13 and #16. Also I think the Par 3s at PD have it all over the par 3s at CD.

Personally I like the two par 5s at PD better than the two at CD which to me are unreachable in any conditions.  The two at PD offer more risk and reward options, and because of the wind each are almost guaranteed to play differently during the same round.

[Chris_Clouser]

David,

I can see that point on the par fives, but to a person that  95% of the time will have no chance of reaching the green in two that aspect has little impact.  The 16th at Crystal and the 7th at PD have some similarities in that the real challenge of the hole begins with the approach and I think the green on the 16th is just a lot more interesting.

As for that wind, at Crystal they play quite differently depending on the wind.  Trust me playing into a 30 mph gale on the 8th makes for one of the longest holes in the world, but playing with that same breeze on 16 makes for quite an adventurous hole as well.

[David Kelly]

Chris,

CD #8 and PD #17 are comparable with CD getting the upper hand on the drive and lay-up (assuming there is one) but I love the green complex at PD as much as almost any par 5 I have played.

CD #16 and PD #7 are vastly different from each other but downwind especially I think PD has a lot more going on and even if it does play very short downwind there are pins that are not very simple to get close to no matter what club is in your hand.  I am thinking of PD #7 playing straight downwind and the player having to get close to a front pin.

[ed_getka]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Tom D,
   I am curious how you would stack up the greensites against one another? Both courses' greens have great movement and putting is challenging as well as short game requirements. What attributes does the better set of greens have that separate it from the other?

[TEPaul]

"What keeps Prairie Dunes from being #1?"

ed;

Seems to me year in and year out Pine Valley does.  

[PThomas]

P Dunes is a fabulous place...boy, you better to be able to drive the ball well or you are in for a long day!


I don't think 17 is the greatest par 5 in America, as Mr. Boatwright once opined, but it is a good hole, esp the approach shot

my personal favorites:  6, 8, 10 - even though I played it pretty poorly - 11, where one small hill right in front of the green affects strategy SO much!, and 18

like the great links courses, the wind is usually a concern out there, sometimes to the tune of 3 clubs

and then there's the greens!  very very cool

the staff there is wonderful as well

all in all, PD is truly pure golf

[Tom_Doak]

Ed:  I would say that the greens at Crystal Downs have a lot greater variety of contours, and that is one of the main reasons I have the course rated more highly.

Prairie Dunes does not have a dull green in the bunch, but the vast majority of them are sharp back-to-front greens with a Maxwell crown in the middle.  The only greens I can think of which don't fit that pattern are #7, 9, and 10.

Crystal Downs has a lot more going on, especially on the front nine which I believe is MacKenzie's main influence.  There are the multiple tiers of #1, the sideways tiers of #3, the fallaway to the right on #5, the multiple bowled areas of #6 and the boomerang punchbowl on #7.  Prairie Dunes has nothing comparable to any of those.

[Jason Blasberg]

I have been in Hutch numerous times and I usually don't just go to eat at the Blue Duck.

But the Blue Duck is a welcoming place after player 36 in the prairie wind!  I'm making dinner reservations for 4 this Thursday and Friday nights  

[ed_getka]

I asked lots of people for dinner recommendations and the Blue Duck never came up. Is this some sort of secret Hutchinson dining club?

[Jason Blasberg]

I'm fairly sure the Blue Duck is the only gourmet dining in Hutchinson.  Definitely a must eat next time you're in town.
  www.blueduckbistro.com

[Craig Van Egmond]

Ed,

        You are a very lucky man to have spent 4 days at PD, one of my favorite courses. Did you swing by the new Faldo course for a look?

         In the battle against Crystal Downs I echo the other comments. CD has the edge in short par 4's and par 5's, whereas I give the edge to PD for the par 3's and longer par 4's.  CD has the better opening hole, PD has the better closing hole. I'm not a fan of PD #12, lose one side of the trees.  The green complexes at CD seem more varied.  

          I wouldn't rank PD above Cypress Point or Crystal Downs, but I would rather play it than Southern Hills.  A truly special place and well deserving of a place it the top 10 - 15 courses in America. I haven't played enough of the them to say where though. Currently #3 on my personal list though.

[ed_getka]

We did a driveby of Cottonwood Hills on our way to the airport, it didn't look inspiring enough for us to get out and really look around. It will open for public play this summer apparently, so I will try to tear myself away from PD on my next trip to play a round there. It will take some VERY encouraging feedback from a GCA'er for me to go over there though. CH is only about 5 miles away from PD and is very easy to get to.
   We also went and checked out a new Jeff Brauer course on our way up to PD. His course is called Sand Creek Station GC. We walked #10-15. #12 was an Alps derivation, but without the interesting tee shot you have at NGLA, and the bunker between the "hill" and the green is not there. But all in all a decent hole which will have the locals scratching their head I am sure. I'll start a separate thread about this course in a day or two.

Craig,
   When are you going to come out to Calif. again, we need to get a round in together sooner rather than later. Hope all is well with you.
   

[ed_getka]

bump for Garland

[ed_getka]

Jim,
   Here is the one I was talking about.

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