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Mike Demetriou

Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2011, 07:40:26 PM »

David,

That's an excellent point and it's a mark of a great golf course if it's murder from the back and playable from the members' tee.  I think Olympia North and South are that way.  The white tees on either course are very playable, the blue tees are very difficult and the black (back) tees are semi-sadistic if you're anything but a long hitting low single-digit handicapper.

Amen. I was emasculated on the North from the tips, and shot my low round of the year on the South from the Whites.  But, to Shivas' point earlier: Man was it fun playing the North from the tips. Do I want to do that again? Not until my game gets better. I.E. no.

Terry, thanks for the examples earlier about the 10 year retrospective.  A very interesting lesson. I'll state again, I wish we had this kind of analysis for other major metro areas. Someone please show me the light if such threads exist but I'm missing them. Who wouldn't find this thread fascinating if it substituted Long Island or Philly for Chicago?  LA, Boston, etc.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2011, 07:55:48 PM »
i thought Butler was much harder than Medinah

I think Butler is much harder for the 0-8 handicap player.  I think for the 8-18 handicap, Medinah is harder.  For 18+, they shouldn't be on either course and expect to enjoy the day.

PThomas

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2011, 08:44:32 PM »
i thought Butler was much harder than Medinah

I think Butler is much harder for the 0-8 handicap player.  I think for the 8-18 handicap, Medinah is harder.  For 18+, they shouldn't be on either course and expect to enjoy the day.

I'm in the 8-18 range so maybe i am the exception that proves the rule...played Butler twice and got my ass kicked both times, while my visit to Medinah turned out pretty well...maybe because my putter got hot on the back, a 60 footer, 15 footer with big break for bird on 17, and a 30 footer for par on 18!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

George Freeman

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2011, 11:08:21 PM »
...I absolutely know I don't have enough game for OFields North, Butler, and Medinah 3. Don't know about the rest, although I think I'd be fine at Shoreacres and Chicago. Of course, those two courses get criticized at the other end of the spectrum.

Phil,

I wouldn't say either Shoreacres or Chicago are "easy."  Can Shoreacres be overpowered?  Definitely, but the greens and ravines, etc can get you if you get a little careless.  As for Chicago: I was expecting it to play similarly as short as Shoreacres, but from the tips (which include some new tees on a few holes), it is definitely no pushover and definitely not short.  There are some long tough holes out there.
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

PCCraig

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2011, 08:49:02 AM »
...I absolutely know I don't have enough game for OFields North, Butler, and Medinah 3. Don't know about the rest, although I think I'd be fine at Shoreacres and Chicago. Of course, those two courses get criticized at the other end of the spectrum.

Phil,

I wouldn't say either Shoreacres or Chicago are "easy."  Can Shoreacres be overpowered?  Definitely, but the greens and ravines, etc can get you if you get a little careless.  As for Chicago: I was expecting it to play similarly as short as Shoreacres, but from the tips (which include some new tees on a few holes), it is definitely no pushover and definitely not short.  There are some long tough holes out there.

George:

You're right. Chicago isn't easy with the new-ish back tees, but then again Chicago is more of a pure-bred golf club where the members are usually pretty good players (or where when they joined).

There are plenty of low rounds out at Shoreacres. If you play on a Tuesday the pins are pretty easy and you can score well. However, by tucking a few pins and having the greens firm and fast, it isn't easy either and I've seen some good players get frustrated and post some high numbers.

Isn't it that type of flexibility that makes a golf course great?
H.P.S.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2011, 09:08:17 AM »
If one is looking for "defense" at Shoreacres, 80% of is comes from the greens.  I've played there a couple dozen times and it's not hard unless Tim Davis (another candidate for best superintendent ANYWHERE, btw) has the greens running over 10.5 and he's utilizing some of the hard-to-access quadrants.  Then, it can be quite menacing, because three putts can become the norm.  Now, it doesn't get as crazy as Lost Dunes because there isn't nearly as much internal contour, but there's a lot of side-to-side movement on those putting surfaces.  When you consider that some of those greens are pretty big (i.e. the monstrous fifth hole), one can imagine just how tough he can make the course.  My friend who graciously takes me out a couple times a year regularly shows me some of the tougher hole locations and I can attest that you can get in some trouble out there.  The ravines, creeks and the one pond can get you sometimes, but the course is pretty straightforward and can only harm you if the greens are set up in a difficult way, IMHO.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

PCCraig

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2011, 10:50:14 AM »
I played out there a season ago on a "Derby" day where they hold a scramble-type event where there are ~20 carts of players playing a hole at the same time. They play one or two holes, then take a drink/food break, and then go out for more. Anyway, they set all the pins in the toughest spots on the respective greens plus they get them running at a legit 11.

We played the course as a foursome with 6, 3, 2, and +1 handicaps. The lowest score of the day was 81.
H.P.S.

Phil McDade

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #132 on: January 13, 2011, 10:50:17 AM »
Shivas:

Weren't you the one that, in a thread long ago, said there is some sort of semi-official (maybe official) tournament or day at Shoreacres where they have the greens nice and firm, and stick nearly every single flag in the toughest spot on the green, which makes the course just a bear to play?

Terry:

Flossmoor two years ago had greens stimping at 12+, according to supt. Bob Lively. But that's not what made the course difficult, for me. It's more a combination of features there -- some tiny greens to hit, a tough table-top par 3 7th, the 17th, a few others.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #133 on: January 13, 2011, 11:24:42 AM »
Speaking of Bob Lively, he's another guy from Chicago who should be considered one of the best superintendents around.  He has done just a spectacular job at FCC.  Before he came, the old superintendent never let the greens get faster than 9.  They looked good, if you're looking for green on a green.  When Lively was interviewed, they asked him about his "philosophy on greens".  He said, "First of all, I don't like the word green if you're talking about greens.  I like to see a little brown, a little purple and a lot of shiny turf."  The interview, for all practical purposes, was over!

His other great philosophical stance on maintenance has to do with tough weather conditions.  In the Midwest, the poa annua grass will die overnight if there's a combination of high heat and humidity.  Bob's always said, "if something's gonna die, I'm gonna watch it die."  Which means that he doesn't go home if that kind of weather is a real threat.  He's a terrific superintendent and a great guy and clearly the key employee at FCC.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Greg Ohlendorf

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #134 on: January 13, 2011, 04:52:48 PM »
Terry,

Great thread and nice comments on a super super, Bob Lively.

BTW, I like #17 as a ball-buster par 4 and 18 as a more benign par 5 at FCC. My two pars a year on 17 are always special!

Greg

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #135 on: January 13, 2011, 06:02:51 PM »
No. 17 at Flossmoor is the hardest straight par-4 I've ever played. You can see the green from the tee, out there in the shimmering haze. You know what to do. But it's so far away, you might as well be looking at, and aiming at, the moon.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #136 on: January 13, 2011, 06:37:01 PM »
No. 17 at Flossmoor is the hardest straight par-4 I've ever played. You can see the green from the tee, out there in the shimmering haze. You know what to do. But it's so far away, you might as well be looking at, and aiming at, the moon.

Not as hard as #10 at Butler from the backs.  The hole is out there in the shimmering haze as well but there are ponds, lakes, beaches and streams  all along the way.  It is also so far away....but the path is frought with so many hazards that you just want to stay on the tee.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 09:23:05 PM by Ryan Potts »

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #137 on: January 13, 2011, 06:55:37 PM »
No. 17 at Flossmoor is the hardest straight par-4 I've ever played. You can see the green from the tee, out there in the shimmering haze. You know what to do. But it's so far away, you might as well be looking at, and aiming at, the moon.

Not as hard as #10 at Butler from the backs.  The hole is out there in the shimmering haze as well but there are ponds, lakes, beaches and streams  all along the way.  It is also so far away....but the path is frough with so many hazards that you just want to stay on the tee.
No. 10 at Butler from the backs is a par 6! The Tour not only didn't play it from there when the Western Open was at Butler, they didn't even acknowledge there was a tee there. There was a scoreboard there instead.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #138 on: January 13, 2011, 10:04:00 PM »
Tim:

Mike Small tells a story of the way Okie State played the course when they used to have college events there.  Their coach instructed evey kid on the team that if they went for the green in two they wouldn't travel to the next tournament.  He told them to play short of the water on the left off the tee, lay up short of the water by the green then try to get up and down for pay and take 5 at the worst.

By the end of the three rounds, Okie State beat the field by 15+ shots on the 10th hole alone.

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