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Phil_the_Author

As Tilly makes his way along the Wissahickon he must surely be pleased to know that a hundred or so years after he was clamoring for public golf courses in Philadelphia that such a list would ever be possible...  ;D

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kyle,

Glad to hear things are looking better these days.  My last round there was circa 2004.  What would you average in terms of time to walk a round on the weekends?  I gave up after it took 3 hours to play 10 holes!

I don't get your love for 11 if it's the hole I remember.  I just pulled it up on Google Earth and it still has the hedges/fence right behind the green on a straightway par 4 under 300 yds with trees pinching the driving corridor.  I do rather like 9 (?) which is a reverse version of the 10th at Merion.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
The drop shot par 3 on the front was always chewed up as well with ball marks and didn't drain well.  Has that been fixed?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 08:30:04 AM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Kyle Harris

Geoff:

The seventh was one of the holes I was alluding to as awful. The conditioning is better than you recall though, at least when I've been there.

Missing the green on the right side of 11 is death, but a tee shot flirting with the right side will get a turbo boost on to the green. The lay up has to be out to the left to play into the severe slope of the green. It's a good half par hole between a long, difficult par 3 and one of the better par 4s in the area.

I think those trees are off-property. Those houses were built on the portion of the original golf course sold in the 1960s. Holes 1, 5, 6, and 7 are the changed holes since the Findlay design.

My pace of play there is 4 hours, 4:15 tops. I usually play afternoons.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 11:59:03 PM by Kyle Harris »

Matt_Ward

Kyle:

Sure, any golfer can hit any type shot if enough of them have a go at it. 40+ handicaps are more than capable in doing that -- but my central premise on the 18th at ME still stands. Kay had an opportunity to provide a definitive closer more align to what you see with the great links and heathland courses of the UK and Ireland. The 18th at ME is nothing remotely close to that -- in fact, it attempts to be completely opposite of plenty of the good stuff that precedes it.

Kyle, the H20 is an eye-candy prop. Drop the sad defense mechanism for a hole that is deadly dull and actually leaves a deplorable end to what could / should have been much better. I'm sorry your eyes were so clouded to that since you seem to have noticed the key details of design Kay included prior to that earlier in the round.

TD has the better tee shot situations -- check out the par-5 4th -- the Bishop's Purse. Great solitary bunker on the right side -- it appears rather small but the ideal play is from that side. The long skinny par-3 3rd green is another wonderful example of what critcial import club selection is all about. I do agree with you regarding the par-418th at TD -- I never thought the concluding hole was a solid one but when held agaunst the 18th at ME ther 18th at TD is like closer at Oakmont.

Kyle, let me say this again because you are missing my previous points almost as wide as a Tiger tee shot. It's not the trees at the 15th and 16th holes at ME. It's the simplistic pedestrian design that attempts to sell the golfer on something that's totally different -- it fails miserably.

On the whole, MEGL is a very convex golf course, Twisted Dune is a very concave one. Pleaser hellpme out with your statement I highlighted in bold. What sort of gobble de goop is that ?

One final statement are you saying in your mind that ME is the better golf course than TD. If you do -- you are frankly very alone in that thinking.

Kyle Harris

Kyle:

Sure, any golfer can hit any type shot if enough of them have a go at it. 40+ handicaps are more than capable in doing that -- but my central premise on the 18th at ME still stands. Kay had an opportunity to provide a definitive closer more align to what you see with the great links and heathland courses of the UK and Ireland. The 18th at ME is nothing remotely close to that -- in fact, it attempts to be completely opposite of plenty of the good stuff that precedes it.

Kyle, the H20 is an eye-candy prop. Drop the sad defense mechanism for a hole that is deadly dull and actually leaves a deplorable end to what could / should have been much better. I'm sorry your eyes were so clouded to that since you seem to have noticed the key details of design Kay included prior to that earlier in the round.

TD has the better tee shot situations -- check out the par-5 4th -- the Bishop's Purse. Great solitary bunker on the right side -- it appears rather small but the ideal play is from that side. The long skinny par-3 3rd green is another wonderful example of what critcial import club selection is all about. I do agree with you regarding the par-418th at TD -- I never thought the concluding hole was a solid one but when held agaunst the 18th at ME ther 18th at TD is like closer at Oakmont.

Kyle, let me say this again because you are missing my previous points almost as wide as a Tiger tee shot. It's not the trees at the 15th and 16th holes at ME. It's the simplistic pedestrian design that attempts to sell the golfer on something that's totally different -- it fails miserably.

On the whole, MEGL is a very convex golf course, Twisted Dune is a very concave one. Pleaser hellpme out with your statement I highlighted in bold. What sort of gobble de goop is that ?

One final statement are you saying in your mind that ME is the better golf course than TD. If you do -- you are frankly very alone in that thinking.

Many minds stand alone in their thinking. I'm okay with this. For starters, I know people that share my view so we can drop the Uncle Miltie routine (only showing as much as we need to) and discuss the golf courses.

Concave has containment features, convex has rejection features. I think you'd agree that TD has a large amount of mounding between holes whereas the surrounds to the fairway corridors at MEGL for the most part drop off, especially on the 1st, 3rd, 12th, and 17th. Miss a tee shot in the dunes at Twisted and the ball will be held closer to the centerline than a similar miss at MEGL. It's really not gobbledy goop but rather an accurate description of the landing zones found on both the courses.

As for you mentioning the 4th tee shot at Twisted Dune, this is, in my opinion, the only hole out there which features the type of tee shot presented on many of the holes at MEGL. At what point on other holes at Twisted is the golfer faced with the sort of decision making presented by the 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, or 12th at MEGL to state a few. Each of these holes feature bunkers placed to influence or tempt the golfer, fall offs and rejection features that will kick a ball erring too much on the side of safety well away from the centerline of the hole from which recovery requires a well considered and executed shot.

Ironic, to me, that the hole to me at MEGL that most resembles what is found at Twisted is the 15th - which you find deplorable and an affront to a just and loving God.

I'm trying to pinpoint exactly what the 18th at MEGL, or any golf course, is supposed to be in your eyes. Is not the 18th green at MEGL drivable on an aggressive line? Is it not a fine candidate for a swing hole in a close match? What challenges do the golfer face in actually attempting to make a 3 and what are the consequences in not executing those decisions. Does the hole fit "elsewhere" in the routing? Would a simple change as flipping the nines appease you? Could the green jut into the pond as more of a "cape?" Sure. But I just do not find the hole as banal or blase as you do. You make the egregious assertion that a 40+ handicapper would find trouble with the hole. Yes, as by definition a 40+ handicapper would have difficulty with any golf shot or hole. The point is, the closer one attempts to get to the green, the more the water will influence the tee shot while granting an ideal angle to the green. Then the approach from the bail out zone to the left is no picnic as the angle of the green and the fall off to the right will feed any over-cooked approach toward the lake. A 10 handicap would have difficulty with that distance control from the left while a scratch golfer may actually feel they can take on the aggressive line and bring the water into the equation. Making a three on the hole requires well-thought out shots and execution. Five and Six are in the equation if the golfer misses. A person playing for a four is going to lose a shot to the successfully playing part of the field, most likely. What more is there?

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm surprised not to see Sand Barrens on your list, I recall we both made positive comments about it when we played it.  And no love for Shoregate?  ;D
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Kyle Harris

I'm surprised not to see Sand Barrens on your list, I recall we both made positive comments about it when we played it.  And no love for Shoregate?  ;D

I liked Sand Barrens, a lot. Again, places do fall victim to the fact there are only ten spots on the list. Same goes for if Pine Barrens were still public.

Shoregate. Meh.

Matt_Ward

Kyle:

Let's keep this mind shall we -- you don't have the personal portfolio of courses to lampoon my choices. All I said was you need to expand your personal awareness by playing the subject courses I mentioned. Assuming your mind is open and you're not hellbent on taking the narrowest of approaches it's possible you may see what I am saying about such courses when compared to the ones you mentioned.

Here's the deal -- I have mentioned in great detail the different courses from within the 100-mile radius you set and those that are less than $100. Sad to say but your homework assignment is incomplete -- for you to bark at me and tell me to drop the Uncle Miltie show is laughable indeed.

Your desire to demonstrate the convex and concave elements is important to you -- but the sheer shotmaking varieties found at TD dwarf those at ME. I never said there weren't good holes at ME but there are major flaws -- the 15th and 16th to name the most glaring -- the inane and pedestrian closer with the 18th. TD has the more consistent and steady presentation and elements of shotmaking, hole diversity and frankly the better course conditions that brings out all the aforementioned areas I mentioned.

You must have missed the likes of several other holes at TD -- any number of the par-4 holes on the inner half are very good -- the 14th being one of the better ones encountered. I have already opined on the 18th at TD -- it could have been better -- but it's miles and miles beyond the lame closer at ME.

Kyle, let me help your own misunderstanding -- the 18th at ME has NO / ZERO / NADA connection to anything resembling some of the great features you find with top tier short holes found across the pond. It is FL golf planted in south jersey.

The challenge you described is quite simplisitic with not a shread of increasing demands being placed for such misses. It's bomb away and let the good times roll. I say that as a long hitter and frankly there is no meaningful "risk" that thrusts its head forward. You mentioned about players hitting the water -- sure, a 40-handicap is prone to do just about anything but my main point(s) still hold about the hole.

ME needs to show a consistent theme and have the presentation / design style to pull that off. When it works well at ME it does so nicely, but there are other times -- which you have completely forgotten or undervalued which show that Kay went off the design motif for such utterly worthless holes.

The green should have been made smaller with more internal contours -- and the H20 could have shaped to really jut into the picture instead of being just a kodak moment insertion. Kyle, please stop with defending the hole -- it is laughable and only serves to undercut the other stronger points you have made. The hole is a big time zero -- it adds nothing -- in fact, it takes away the many fine thing that have bult up prior -- sad to say the round at ME needs to stop at the 12th hole -- after that you slowly hit the wall and then plummet over the edge to just a series of slop holes with the 15th, 16th and 18th.

Kyle Harris

Matt:

Your statements are laden with the fallacies of experience and hyperbole that it is no longer worthwhile to debate them. Our readers can draw their own conclusions.

Could you please cite the shotmaking demands of the 14th hole at Twisted Dune and then explain how they represent the variety you espouse, and then draw a meaningful comparison to those I cited at MEGL, the analysis of which you have ignored to this point.

What side of the 14th fairway is favored for approach and with what shot can I accomplish this position from the tee?

Matt_Ward

Kyle:

You can tapdance and avoid the main issue but frankly it's laughable. You insert certain benchmarks into your discussion and then you offer some spineless excuse book by trying to turn things around to me. Like I said why don't you play the rich assortment of courses I mentioned and then you can tell me I'm all wet. Without the fullest range of cards in your deck you hand is on the light side.

There's no fallacy to experience -- there's just your manifested ignorance which shines brighter than a new moon (with all due respect).

I explained numerous courses and often with a good amount of detail. You can't admit the blatantly obvious shortcomings you bring to the table.

Kyle, it's OK to say you don't have the sheer array of courses to draw upon. I have not been to NZ or Aussie land and a host of other places. I don't presume to know more than many people when they have the personal experiences to back up what they are saying.

For some reason -- you can't do that. If you want a real give and take -- start understanding what the "give" elements is all about.


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