[Patrick_Mucci]

Like the Biarritz, I began to think about which version I prefered to play.

From the perspective of playability, which do you prefer ?

The Redan where the tee is elevated above the green              Sleepy Hollow, The Creek,

The Redan where the tee and green are on the same level        NGLA

The Redan where the tee is well below the green ?                  Piping Rock


Which do you prefer and why ?

Have you played all three versions ?

[Bill_McBride]

I don't care too much for the downhill versions, the others are more attractive to me so long as the green falls away behind the bunker.

I think it's because I like to be surprised by where the ball winds up.

Whatever the topography, it has to be firm to play properly.

I have played NGLA, The Creek, Yale, Mid-Ocean, and Mountain Lake, but prefer the original at North Berwick.

I've also played Tom Doak's modern evocations at Pacific Dunes and Apache Stronghold, but they lack fall away slope to the degree essential for the very best Redans.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill,

It is true that the green on the Redan at National falls away much more severely than any I have built.  National's green has 4% tilt in the middle and 6% at the front and back.  If I put that much slope in a green, I would be lined up in front of a firing squad as soon as the greens got to 10 on the Stimpmeter.

I suspect Shinnecock's seventh green is about equally steep, and that's why they had so many problems there at the last Open.

For what it's worth, I agree with you that North Berwick's Redan is still far and away the best of them.  It's key advantage is the amount of playable area through the green on the left, as a bailout for the frequent days when it plays downwind. 

[Mac Plumart]

Of the ones that I have played (NGLA, Lookout Mountain, Yeamans Hall, and Rivermont)...

I like Yeamans the best.  It has that amazing slope on the back of the green that total takes the ball downhill FAST.

And Lookout was my least favorite, but it was still very cool.  Especially the back bunker, which I am just a bit too familiar with. 

 Rivermont has a similar slope as Yeamans, but has a "pimple" in the middle that allows/forces golfers to put over or around it to a side if the pin is in the back. 

NGLA seemed good to me, but not as dramatic as Yeamans.

[Ben Sims]

I'd love to join the discussion, but I'd like a bit of clarification first.

Are we speaking about specific holes that are called "redan" or variations on the theme?  The reason I ask, is that several holes come to mind that are concepts of the redan--not specific, template versions--that I consider very good golf holes.  The 4th at Hidden Creek and 4th at Riviera come to mind just for their sheer difficulty and definite "feeding" tendencies. 

As far as specific template version go, I've only played those at Yale, Lookout Mountain, and Sleepy Hollow--all downhill versions.  I'd have to say that Yale was my least favorite and Sleepy my most favorite of that bunch.   

Heck, Jeff Brauer built a version at Wildhorse in Davis, CA that I think--with the proper conditioning--could be as good as some of the above. 

[Sean_A]

I have only seen two "offical" Redans.  Both Yeamans and N Berwick's are good, but I prefer N Berwick's.  The element of blindness is still there, there is more bailout room long (YHC has none) which encourages aggressive play and the right to left grounder is much more in play because Yeaman's is more of a width green whereas N Berwick's is a length green.  In other words the angle of approach is a bit different. 

Cavendish has a version of the Redan, the 13th, which I prefer to Yeaman's as well - as a Redan - as a par 3 I prefer Yeamans.   

Ciao 

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

It is true that the green on the Redan at National falls away much more severely than any I have built.  National's green has 4% tilt in the middle and 6% at the front and back.  If I put that much slope in a green, I would be lined up in front of a firing squad as soon as the greens got to 10 on the Stimpmeter.

I suspect Shinnecock's seventh green is about equally steep, and that's why they had so many problems there at the last Open.

For what it's worth, I agree with you that North Berwick's Redan is still far and away the best of them.  It's key advantage is the amount of playable area through the green on the left, as a bailout for the frequent days when it plays downwind. 

I didn't say I didn't like your Redans, great holes, it's just another reflection ofvthe modern obsession with the Stimpmeter!

[Mike Policano]

Pat, of the holes you listed, I think NGLA presents the best copy of the Redan. They are all of course versions of the original at North Berwick. Having finally seen the original, I wonder if Tillie's version at Somerset Hills is the best 'copy' of the original.

Perhaps Tom could weigh in on No. 2 at Somerset vs the original since he knows both holes well.

Cheers

[JC Jones]

Here are pictures of the Redan at Yeamans Hall

Tee shot:  Notice the ridge in the middle of the green.  Simply getting this up to the right side will not be enough to kick it down to the left



From the side:



The bunker in front:

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

Please write the following line out 1,000 times on a blackboard at your next design presentation,
‘I should know better being involved with GCA, the best Redan is the original at North Berwick. All others are just a reflection  of the Real Thing’

Are you seeking to go off topic or trying to prove my case that electronic distance aids if used regularly
Can damage the little grey cells

Perhaps you have already started the Christmas Merriment a little early.

Melvyn

[Patrick_Mucci]

The question really relates to one's preference and why.

The hidden core of the question is the element or perspective of visibility.

Visibility as it pertains to ball flight and roll.

[Andrew Summerell]

I've played all 3 types of Redans & out of all the Redans I've played, I agree with Bill & Tom. I much prefer the Redan at North Berwick.


Pat,

Have you played North Berwick (West) ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

For "shot value," challenge, playbility of the tee shot or whatever one calls that I actually give the edge to Piping but just by a sliver over NGLA and only because Piping's green is above the tee and I like that with a redan for shot value but I think it also fits the military etymology of the name. NGLA beats Piping by a mile though for its over-all setting but when I am about ready to hit a ball to a par three, setting is not important to me but shot value sure is.

When either of those two holes are playing real firm and fast you pretty much have to land the ball on the "kicker" and not on the green surface, at least if you're me.

[Kevin Pallier]

I don't care too much for the downhill versions, the others are more attractive to me so long as the green falls away behind the bunker.

I'm with Bill on this one. Too much assistance is given to the player with the downhill sloping one's eg: Pac Dunes

I prefer those where to tee / green is level and a players judgement and execution skills are tested moreso.

[Scott Warren]

Melvyn,

How many Redans other than the original at North Berwick West Links have you played?

Pat,

For mine the best "Redan" hole I have played is the 4th at Riviera. The original is pretty hard to go past, but 4 at Riv is a wonderful hole to play, and just gorgeous to the eye.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

For "shot value," challenge, playbility of the tee shot or whatever one calls that I actually give the edge to Piping but just by a sliver over NGLA and only because Piping's green is above the tee and I like that with a redan for shot value but I think it also fits the military etymology of the name. NGLA beats Piping by a mile though for its over-all setting but when I am about ready to hit a ball to a par three, setting is not important to me but shot value sure is.

When either of those two holes are playing real firm and fast you pretty much have to land the ball on the "kicker" and not on the green surface, at least if you're me.

I happen to like the vertical challenge (upward) and the level challenge, for different reasons.

Don't downhill Redans become strictly an aerial exercise ?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

The original one at NB. It’s at home with itself settled in a great part of Scotland. There is no chicken or egg question here

Melvyn

[Scott Warren]

Melvyn,

What is it in your view that makes the Redan hole at North Berwick West Links superior to the other Redans you've played?

[Andrew Summerell]

Pat,

How do you view North Berwick’s Redan compared to Piping Rock & NGLA? Do Piping Rock & NGLA have aspects that the original Redan doesn’t have?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've played all 3 types of Redans & out of all the Redans I've played, I agree with Bill & Tom. I much prefer the Redan at North Berwick.


Pat,

Have you played North Berwick (West) ?

YES.

I liked it very much.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

How do you view North Berwick’s Redan compared to Piping Rock & NGLA?

All three are wonderful holes.

Piping Rock's and North Berwick's seem truer to the terminology since their lower tees present the fortified green differently than NGLA's.

NGLA usually plays downwind and the visuals of the greensite are rather spectacular..

While all three provide the golfer with an element of mystery as to the final resting place of his golf ball, NGLA probably provides more in the way of green/ball visuals

Do Piping Rock & NGLA have aspects that the original Redan doesn’t have?

Piping Rock's version is closer to North Berwick's. due to the juxtaposition of the tee and green.

NGLA, like Somerset Hills has that deep dip in between the tee and the green that tends to intimidate the golfer.

All three holes are wonderful holes, however I've often wondered how thay would be viewed if they appeared at different times in the routing.

I wonder, if NGLA's and PR's redans appeared as # 16 or # 17, if they'd get MORE notoriety.

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