[John Chilver-Stainer]

Melvyn,

Your diligence in providing Old Tom Morris evidence continues to impress me – brilliant !!!

I’ve checked the angle of the 4th Hole 1850 Layout and measured the bend at various turning points and I get an angle of 10-15 degrees, which wouldn’t qualify in my book as a true Dog Leg.

On the other hand on the “green layout” the Cardinal Hole is a Dog Leg of 30 degrees. Can one date this hole?

Have you any idea when the 1st Hole at Machrihanish started being played from the peninsular over the beach.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Adam,

A fine dog and also a fashion victim ………. is that a tartan jacket he’s wearing?

[Chris Johnston]

Adam and Peter,

Personally I prefer to follow John Mayhughs advice.

“The most enjoyable courses feature at least four doglegs”

I would say more than 7 Dog Legs would be overuse or at least underusing the more versatile straight hole.

...and more than 4 knights on the chess board could get a bit confusing

I’m sure you’ll like this one.



Any guesses where it is?

Now, that IS a great layout!  A fair test of golf.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Bill_McBride]

Adam and Peter,

Personally I prefer to follow John Mayhughs advice.

“The most enjoyable courses feature at least four doglegs”

I would say more than 7 Dog Legs would be overuse or at least underusing the more versatile straight hole.

...and more than 4 knights on the chess board could get a bit confusing

I’m sure you’ll like this one.



Any guesses where it is?

Now, that IS a great layout!  A fair test of golf.

Happy Thanksgiving!

But it's so flat!!

[Chris Johnston]

"But it's so flat!!"

Yep, and the Colors are odd as well.

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

The Cardinal Hole was by my other relative Charlie Hunter when he re designed the course in 1883. This course was played by Willie Campbell in 1889 (when he worked at Prestwick) taking a 3 for this Hole prior to achieving a record for the first 9 of 32.

As for Machrihanish the 1st Hole was by Old Tom date was 1879.

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

"But it's so flat!!"

Yep, and the Colors are odd as well.

Probably not overseeded..

[Richard Phinney]

Richard,

One can only speculate how ancient golf was played, probably very erraticly, however the original game simply had a point to play to, which was the beginning and the end of each hole.

These points were marked out and I would speculate that the original lines of play were not designed to have changes of angle of more than 22.5 degrees after 200 or 250 yards or more.

If one chose to play at a different angle from the straight line, for whatever reason that didn’t make the hole a Dog Leg in the modern understanding of the word.

It would be interesting to hear from our distinguished historians when the term “Dog Leg” first entered the golfing vocabulary, and which golf course architects claimed to have one.

Maybe Melvyn can show us a layout of one of Old Tom Morris’s golf courses where a fairway is deliberately drawn with a large angle – or did he not draw any plans.

I don’t suppose he hammered in a post at the turning point in the fairways when he was staking out his new golf courses, as is the current practice nowadays.

I have to disagree with you.  I think early golf had its share of interesting angles.

or to put it another way, virtually all links holes today are also played point to point, we have simply manicured the fairways to make the best direction more obvious. I'm not sure there is much difference from a dogleg perspective from the old and newer Prestwick routings. Some of the original holes would not have been straight. And I think it likely that the 1st at Macrihanish would have been drawn as a straight line despite the fact it is an obvious dogleg.

Take this excerpt from Hutchinson's book on British golf courses - describing the first (as it was then) at Montrose:


The drive to the first hole (260 yards)
needs to be a good one, for there are some
, eighty yards of bunker immediately in front
of the tee, while beyond are two smaller
hazards which will trap any drive of less
than 140 yards carry. Drivers of meaner
capacity can avoid all but the front bunker
by playing to the left. To these leftward
shirkers the approach is a fall iron shot,
whereas the bolder and successful negotiators
of the ' direct route' get within a wrist
shot.

in this case, the shorter hitters played the hole as a dogleg....on other holes, it might be the long hitter that would do so. You could call this hole a classic case of cutting off the dogleg if you want.  But the hole will always appear as a straight line on an early map of the course.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Richard,

Thanks for the historical reference – it would be great if there were some sketches of these lost holes.

The example you quote from Hutchkinson clearly refers to the main shot for the" bolder" players as being the “direct route” over the bunkers, and the “shirkers” playing to the left of the bunkers as an alternative strategy. I wouldn’t interpret this description as cutting off the corner of a Dog Leg.

I agree with you that many of the ancient holes were played “off line”  to avoid difficulties or create better angles - that is the joy of the choice of strategy which is available with a “Straight Hole”. The direct line, or even an alternative angle up the opposite side of the fairway, is still available, with no significant loss of distance.

My premise as described in the previous threads is a “True” Dog Leg is a forced angle of more than 22.5 degrees on the second shot after a full drive to the standard turning point.

Up to now the only “True” Dog Legs in Ancient Golf I have noted are the 7th at the Old Course and the 1st at Machrihanish (1879).
However I’m sure there are more if one looks around.

In any event the "True" Dog Leg in Ancient Golf was a rarity, as opposed to the modern era where they tend to be overused in my opinion.

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