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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2010, 07:42:53 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I would love to see your short or medium list of "significant designs".

I have always promoted a similar concept.  One of the reasons for that is that it would limit the b.s. that Mike Young is talking about.  The reason there are so many so-called restorations going on today, is that architects are selling them to gullible members, and when the significance is being determined one course at a time, architects seem to believe that every course which might hire them is suddenly significant.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 07:47:06 PM by Tom_Doak »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2010, 09:11:52 PM »
There is no right or wrong answer here.  However, what bothers me is that many times, architects fail to take the time to figure out what was there in the first place before making their recommendations for improvement.  Very few golf courses deserve to be "restored", but ALL golf courses deserve a good look at their evolution before bringing in the bulldozers!

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2010, 09:47:57 PM »
Here's Tom Doak on what he's doing at North Shore,one of Raynor's early courses:

It is not a restoration.  On some of the holes, we are choosing to do things that ARE restorative, because we think the original hole was really good; but we are also completely changing holes 1, 2, 7, 17 and 18, primarily because we thought the starting and finishing holes were pretty dull and could be improved.

The interesting thing about North Shore (and the problem) is that it was designed in the mid-1910's, when Raynor assumed that good players were hitting the ball 180-220 yards ... so, many of the holes have the coolest topography in the fairways in places where the better players today don't even notice it.  This is one reason that the course has been more popular among seniors and good female golfers than among the 5-handicaps who determine what's great ... it's not really about the total length, as much as it is about where the interesting features come into play.

There was no room to lengthen (most tees are up against a fence or another fairway or severe topo), but by rerouting 1-2-17-18, we were able to bring some of the better features more into play for the better golfer.  On #7, we just quit fighting a short par-4 that was too short, and have turned it into a driveable par-4, based loosely on the sixth hole at Pacific Dunes.  I would never have done that at Old Macdonald, because it wasn't a Macdonald concept, but the marching orders here were NOT to preserve everything Macdonald did even if it wasn't working well today.

I have very seldom considered doing redesign work like this, for two reasons:

1.  It's difficult to make significant changes on a course where for 90 years, every decision has reinforced the original plan, and

2.  The politics of redesign are impossible to deal with; most clubs have 300 members who joined because they like what's already there, and no suggested change will be even close to unanimous.

So, I generally have preferred to stick to restorative work, where there is no argument the membership can make.  At North Shore, though, the political argument went away because many of the previous members are now gone, and I only have one owner to answer to.  In fact, 15-20 years ago I looked at the same course, but declined to become involved precisely because the committees were so fractured and because they were not open to considering more radical changes.

I suspect this sort of work will be much more common over the next 10-20 years.  The permitting process is much more streamlined (although tree ordinances can be a problem), and the work can happen quite quickly if there are some holes worth keeping and you are really only making major changes on a few.  I do still believe there are many old courses which ought to be restored instead of redesigned, but I don't think North Shore was one of them.
I don't know what you mean by research.  I certainly didn't do an exhaustive historical study, thanks partly to this thread, which has parallelled our involvement.  I did gather information from George Bahto on what he had done to the course in a renovation a few years back, and I've looked at whatever old photos they had.

Mr. Zucker hired me to make recommendations first.  If that recommendation had been to make a complete restoration, I think he would have accepted that; but he has certain goals to restore the course to prominence and to attract new members, and I don't know that he believed he could accomplish those goals by leaving the basic design unchanged.  I didn't think he could, either.  The north shore of Long Island is an extremely competitive market for good golf courses; Engineers is just down the street, and The Creek, Piping Rock, Garden City, and Sands Point are all less than 15 minutes away.  North Shore wasn't considered in that league with its original layout, whomever you prefer to ascribe it to.  And the club was never going to be really successful if it was considered a weak sister to all of those others.  I'm not saying what we are doing will make the course BETTER than those, but it will put it in the discussion.

We only made the decision to start on the work we have recommended less than a month ago, and I am still changing the details of the design on the fly, so we have always been open to incorporating whatever anyone discovered about the history of the courseom Doak on what he's doing at North Shore:

I don't want to go into a long hole-by-hole description, but the main idea of reversing the first two and last two holes was to trade out four short/medium par-4 holes for a more diverse group.

The major changes are as follows:

New 1st hole, 380 yards, from old 18th green up to old 2nd tee.  Improves visibility over present first hole.

New 2nd hole, 305 yards.  Sahara type, from between 2nd & 18th tees down the old 17th fairway, with green set to the left backing up close to the ravine on #16.

New 17th hole, 135 yards.  From old 17th tee just across the ravine, to the wildest green I've built in a while, based on the Short hole at National.  Added a fourth par-3 hole when previous course had only three.

New 18th hole, 615 yards.  From old 2nd green up and over the hill and down to old 1st tee.  Deep bunker front left of green and a nasty fall-off to the left.  Adds variety of a long par-5 hole when all the rest were 475-500 yards; also more dramatic view down toward the clubhouse than on the present 18th.

New 7th hole, 315 yards.  Tee moved up the hill to the right of the 6th green; approach opened up so that you can try to drive the green, but any pulled drive will result in big trouble.  Based loosely on the 6th at Pacific Dunes, but styled to look like Raynor.

We have also rebuilt the sixth green (more of a punchbowl) and will do major grading in the sixth fairway; and today we are starting to rebuild the 15th green, which was just too steep.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2010, 10:33:24 PM »
Steve,

I just returned from a visit to North Shore yesterday.  All seven new greens have a good catch of grass on them, and the crew has moved on to the rest of the changes, which are loosely as follows:

Hole 3, changed to a par 4 by moving the middle tees up, back tee still 470.  Shifting fairway to the right and adding a deep fairway bunker on left for the long hitters.  Lowering the area short of the green to improve visibility from 200 out.  Slight fix to Road bunker at green.

Hole 4, removed mounds at back of green, deepened right green side bunkers into swale, extended green to right for a scary hole location near fall-off.

Hole 5, restoring Biarritz swale in front of green, but not any green in front of it.  Added back tee at 235 yards.

Hole 6, filled fairway on left significantly.  Adding new back tee and new senior tee.

Hole 12, enlarged and massaged right half of green.  Also deepening front green side bunker.

Hole 13, shifting fairway to right away from boundary, new fairway bunker to left.

There is some work we would like to do on holes 9-10-11 and 16, but that will have to wait for another day.  The hope is to have 18 holes in play on May 1 of next year, though we will likely have a temporary par 3 for the third hole so we don't have to sod the whole thing.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2010, 07:20:05 AM »
Tom Doak,

You write about the new putting quantum at North Shore "Deep bunker front left of green and a nasty fall-off to the left."

If you would be so kind, what do the front, right and rear portions of the quantum offer?  It seems like double jeopardy to back up the deep bunker with the fall-off, sort of like kicking a hooker when he's down.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2010, 12:00:29 PM »
Absolutely, the first line of attack should be trees and fairway & greenside cut lines/width.  I would suspect that on many courses some of the bunkering would then need to be altered and some bunkers enlarged.  For heaven's sake, don't touch the angles of a classic hole or the greens at the very least until the above is considered/completed.  IT DOESN'T MATTER in the least what the project is called, the bottom line is value needs to be delivered.  The only two courses I am intimately familar with which had significant renos are UofM and Leslie Park - both by A Hills.  I don't believe either project delivered good value. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2010, 04:25:07 PM »
Ronald,

I had a little bit about quantum mechanic when I was a freshman at M.I.T., but that was 32 years ago and I ran for my life!

On the 18th hole in question, there is a very steep slope to the ledt of the green, with a bunker at the front left holding it up.  It will take some guts to hit your wedge toward any hole location on the left, but if you bail out, it will leave a difficult two-putt over a ridge.  Nothing like finishing with a 6!

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