[George Pazin]

A good friend of mine on here lost his mind the other day and made an insane statement:

I think thats my point.  No, I don't think the greens of the courses you mentioned are the sole or primary reason for these courses being of quality.  A golf course is a marriage of the routing (in which I would include green sites), the shot strategies, the terrain and the maintenance practices to allow the strategies to be fully realized.  IMO, the entire concept of protecting a golf course at the greens has been totally over-blown and simplified as part of the minimalist mantra.  There is no doubt that sort of design concept is important and vital, but we must remember that that a high percentage of shots take place nowhere near a green and that even for shots coming into greens it often doesn't matter a tosh if the green is undulating or not.  The art of subtle design has damn near been erased by well meaning archies who are as concerned with creating a framed vista with pretty hazards as they are with the strategy of the hole. 

Ciao

 

Actually, from reading Sean's many posts on here, I'm quite certain our thoughts are very much in line, and I think this is basically a semantic argument.

Nevertheless, it is one I think is worth exploring.

Share your thoughts, I'll share mine in a few.

[Matthew Petersen]

I think when we talk about defending par, we have to keep in mind that we really are discussing defending the course for the best players. Prod and good amateurs are considerably less challenged by tee-to-green features since they are more skilled at avoiding them. Therefore, it is the greens where golf presents most of its challenges for these players.

Tee to green hazards and conditions tend to defend bogey or worse as those features are more in play for and more hazardous to less skilled players.

[Bill Brightly]

Matt is right, pros and top ams are much better at avoiding hazards, but a very challenging green and/or pin placement often tempts good players to take on the hazard from the tee to be better able to handle the tough shot to the green. Sean's description of a "marriage" between elements is a good one.

[George Pazin]

I like most of Sean's ideas - particularly those in regard to restraint - fewer bunkers, less frilly eye candy, etc - but I think he is misunderstanding the concept of defending par at the greens. What this concept means to me is that the green complex should be designed in a manner to favor thoughtful play - hitting the correct side of the fairway, choosing the correct side of the green to miss, etc.

It does not mean to ignore other elements of the course - fairway bunkering or hazards, routing, etc - but rather to utilize the design in the green complex to bring out the best in these elements.

When I think of someone NOT defending par at the greens, I think of someone who uses hazards to merely penalize wayward shots, or merely offer something that may not be of value to challenge. Ironically enough, I think it means someone who specifically designs for the frilly elements Sean decries!

Love to hear more thoughts, especially Sean's.

[Chris Buie]

What this concept means to me is that the green complex should be designed in a manner to favor thoughtful play - hitting the correct side of the fairway, choosing the correct side of the green to miss, etc.

I like your thoughts there George.  I wish there were more courses that actually had a correct or favorable side of the fairway.  On too many courses there is little strategic difference between one side or the other.  
Choosing the correct side of the green to miss is very underrated as a key to playing a hole well.  The arch would, of course, have to design the hole so that there actually was a preferable place to miss.
Both of those points are IMHO, of course.

[Peter Pallotta]

George - I think Sean might agree with your last post, but then again he might not.  To my eyes, not many of the wonderful 'tier-two' English courses that Sean profiles (and appreciates so much) are characterized by boldly/wildly undulating greens.  In fact, they don't seem to be 'characterized' by anything at all, so simple (or 'subtle') are their designs and so 'integrated' are all the elements that go in to making a golf course. 

Peter

[Jon Wiggett]

I have to say this is one of the few occassions where I do not agree with Sean A. Even off the tee on many par 4's the green and pin postion play a major part in deciding the type of shot used and thus effecting how par is defended. The ways of defending par away from the green are through narrowness, longer distances and sloping topography.

Jon

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