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Chip Gaskins

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Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« on: August 11, 2010, 09:37:56 PM »
Were Mackenzie, Macdonald, Raynor, Bell, Travis, Flynn, Behr, Tillinghast, Ross, etc all good business men?  Or did you even need to be a good business man then?

Did they do what they did (GCA) because they thought that was the way they could make the most money given their skills?  

Did they build golf courses because they wanted notoriety?  

Did they do it because they had failed at something else?

I know many of them were very educated, well heeled men (Macdonald, Mackenzie, etc) and some were proficient writers (Behr) and very skilled in other trades (Raynor), but were they good business men?  Did they die wealthy and fulfilled?

PS  We will get into another thread later on whether they were good golfers or not.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 09:42:01 PM by Chip Gaskins »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 10:02:57 PM »
Chip,

Ross evidently built an organization.

Some of the others seemed to dabble at it, not unlike a hobby on steroids.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 10:12:20 PM »
Chip - we're still talking about them now, so they must've been good enough.

Peter

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 10:14:28 PM »
Chip,
Interesting idea, but I don't think that dying poor (and one could also argue unfulfilled) necessarily means any of the ODGs were bad business men.

Someone like Raynor never seemed to be grabbing for the spotlight, and an academic like Banks seems to have been motivated by a love of the craft, which caused him to leave a rather secure position and go galavanting around with Raynor.




"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill Brightly

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Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 10:37:40 PM »
Chip,

It is a great question but it probably has to be answered individually for each ODG.

I don't think CB Macdonald needed to be a good businessman (although he probably was) because he had great connections to the wealthiest people in the US. I think he built courses because he was asked to, but he wanted them to be great courses and no doubt he wanted notoriety.

Raynor had to be a far better businessman to compete with Tilly, Ross and others. No doubt he had to convince clubs that he could build a great course within a specific budget (and then pull it off) far more often than CBM. But we need to wait for George Bahto's book :)

Banks stumbled into the business by accident, had only a couple of years as an assistant to Raynor before Raynor died, and Banks made a decent go of the business (finished Fishes Island, lost the Cypress Point deal, built a dozen or so really good courses) for a few years before the Geat Depression hit.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 10:44:55 PM by Bill Brightly »

Chris_Clouser

Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 10:39:51 PM »
Chip,

The only one I feel even slightly qualified enough to comment on would be Maxwell.  

I think Maxwell was a good business man, but money was not his motivator.  Evidence from his banking career and the real estate investments he made in his life attest to that.  Maxwell went into golf course design as a way to put his kids through school more than anything else.  He was fairly well off from the oil boom in Oklahoma and the other items I mentioned earlier.  Later it turned out that he did need to keep working thanks to the Depression and everything else that happened in his life.  I don't think noteriety was ever something he was concerned with.  He knew he was good at it and was confident in his own ability and that was enough for him.  I do know that at the end of his life he was well enough off that he didn't have to worry about money, but I would not call him wealthy.  But Maxwell did feel fulfilled when he finally died.  He did an interview about 6 months before his death where he talked about how his life had been anything that he could have hoped for.  

For your next question, he was not a good golfer.  But he was a very good tennis player.

Sean_A

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Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 07:53:57 AM »
There doesn't seem to be many other ways to judge a business man than by the money he makes or if he so chooses, a sort of combo of enough money to be comfortable and enough time to be happy.  I have to think Ross and Colt were at least decent businessmen because of their longevity in the business and they seem to die with enough money to be comfortable.  Dr Mac was in a way a trailblazer cruising the seas for business.  How successful was he?  He seemed to live alright until the end.  I believe Park Jr suffered some financial difficulty for many years after his Huntercombe failure.  One thing that strikes me is I don't think any of these guys got rich in architecture or if they did, their lifestyle was such that they weren't rich enough.  It could well be the case that many of these chaps would have done better financially if they weren't involved in architecture. 

Even amongst recent archies, are there many who got rich off architecture? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2010, 10:46:34 AM »
Chip:

I guess the first question would be whether they even cared if they were good businessmen.  Macdonald and Thomas (among others) didn't accept a fee for their work at all.

The second question would be whether you had to be able to survive the Depression to be considered a good businessman.  If so, then most failed on that score.

I think it's safe to say that when you were born has had an enormous impact on the success of golf course architects.  Macdonald and MacKenzie and Colt were all born right around 1870, so they had established themselves a bit before WW I and hit the ground running when it ended and golf course construction boomed.  And my generation (or the guys a few years older than me, I was just lucky to be precocious) came of a age in the roaring 2000's, when jobs were falling out of trees and you could be who you wanted to be.

By contrast, there aren't a lot of famous architects born in the 1890's, there are only a couple from the 1900's or 1910's [Robert Trent Jones], and there won't be too many from the 1970's, the way things look today.

And if "getting rich" is the standard of success, then the only guys I can think of who qualify are Robert Trent Jones and Tom Fazio.  The others who were wealthy pretty much started that way.  But that is really an awful standard for success, isn't it?  There must be dozens of golf course architects today who have put more in the bank than I have, but I doubt there are that many who are happier with what they've done.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 10:50:56 AM by Tom_Doak »

Sean_A

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Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 11:41:35 AM »
"And if "getting rich" is the standard of success, then the only guys I can think of who qualify are Robert Trent Jones and Tom Fazio.  The others who were wealthy pretty much started that way.  But that is really an awful standard for success, isn't it?  There must be dozens of golf course architects today who have put more in the bank than I have, but I doubt there are that many who are happier with what they've done."

Tom, to me you are confusing the product with the business end of the product.  You can make a great product and be a lousy businessman.  Making a great product (great has many, many conotations) is a means to make money.  If a guy doesn't want to make money, he isn't in business and if you are in business its for money and if its for money than money must be a main indicator of success.  As I say, I can see a guy being okay sacrificing some profits to make a better product or to have more personal time, but money must still be made or you can't be called successful.   

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2010, 11:49:51 AM »
Tom's mentioning the amateur nature of the really ODG's is an important one. From my limited understanding, building courses, from vision to ribbon cutting, is the fun part. Owning, or running them, is another kettle of fish. So, if there's an opportunity gain from getting paid for something that you would do for free, or much less, that's a bar of success. Isn't it?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2010, 01:57:40 PM »
Did any/many of the ODG's invest their own money into their projects?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2010, 03:08:57 PM »
Tilly put a good deal of his own money into Poxono which suffered a very early demise because of the Market Crash...

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2010, 03:41:23 PM »

Tom, to me you are confusing the product with the business end of the product.  You can make a great product and be a lousy businessman.  Making a great product (great has many, many conotations) is a means to make money.  If a guy doesn't want to make money, he isn't in business and if you are in business its for money and if its for money than money must be a main indicator of success.  As I say, I can see a guy being okay sacrificing some profits to make a better product or to have more personal time, but money must still be made or you can't be called successful.   


Sean-

I was going to try and qualify what I meant by "successful" but you just nailed what I was getting at.  You always hear the term starving artist... 

I suppose some examples would be is if Mackenzie (or pick any ODG) ever turned down a job because he didn't think it would better his portfolio of courses, image, etc.

Tom

I did not realize Macdonald or Thomas didn't charge for their services.  That pretty much answers the question were they good business men, the answer has to be yes.  They were wealthy enough to work and not charge.

I suppose the answer to my question is hard to answer without being able to define "good business men" and what successful really means...

Bill Brightly

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Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2010, 04:15:20 PM »
Chip,

You are touching on a subject that I find very interesting to think about: the competition between architects from 1910 to 1930.  I tend to throw out Macdonald because he did not "need the work" and simply built courses for ridiculously wealthy guys like the Vanderbilts, Harriman, Grace etc.

But there was a whole second tier of successful businessmen, doctors, lawyers, etc. who also wanted great golf courses but were not so wealthy that they could just open their checkbooks. Cost would matter to them, and many ODG's had to deal with that. In the northeast  U.S. (where I live) these clubs would interview Tillinghaust, Ross, Raynor, Stiles and Van Kleek, etc. and I am certain they butted heads on MANY potential jobs. I envision these ODG's going from committee to committee not only selling their routing plan, but also justifying their fee, accurately predciting the costs of construction AND how well the turf would grow in (a really new science back then.) I would LOVE to get my hands on the written propositions (they did not call them proposals or bids) that these guys put together!  

And I wonder what Tilly would say to get a job that Ross was bidding? Perhaps something like this: "Ah, old Donald just looks at the topo maps and mails in his plans...while I walk the site!" Did Raynor tell his clients that his engineering background would assure that the project would be built on time, on budget, and include proven GREAT holes? How many times did they sit in the lobby together waiting to be interviewed?

Kyle Harris

Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2010, 06:07:19 PM »
Flynn was a part owner of the Philadelphia Eagles and had stake in the Marble Hall project (which is now Green Valley's golf course).

I think it's safe to say he was an able, successful business manager.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2010, 08:32:39 PM »
Kyle,

Anyone who owned even a portion of the Eagles was definitely NOT a good businessman!

Go Giants!

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2010, 09:44:27 PM »
Raynor was not a good business man .......   Raynor was not bashful about his fees, though and certainly was not one to compromise - his work load may have been a factor

Banks on the other hand was excellent business man
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike_Young

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Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2010, 09:58:31 PM »
Chip:

I guess the first question would be whether they even cared if they were good businessmen.  Macdonald and Thomas (among others) didn't accept a fee for their work at all.

The second question would be whether you had to be able to survive the Depression to be considered a good businessman.  If so, then most failed on that score.

I think it's safe to say that when you were born has had an enormous impact on the success of golf course architects.  Macdonald and MacKenzie and Colt were all born right around 1870, so they had established themselves a bit before WW I and hit the ground running when it ended and golf course construction boomed.  And my generation (or the guys a few years older than me, I was just lucky to be precocious) came of a age in the roaring 2000's, when jobs were falling out of trees and you could be who you wanted to be.

By contrast, there aren't a lot of famous architects born in the 1890's, there are only a couple from the 1900's or 1910's [Robert Trent Jones], and there won't be too many from the 1970's, the way things look today.

And if "getting rich" is the standard of success, then the only guys I can think of who qualify are Robert Trent Jones and Tom Fazio.  The others who were wealthy pretty much started that way.  But that is really an awful standard for success, isn't it?  There must be dozens of golf course architects today who have put more in the bank than I have, but I doubt there are that many who are happier with what they've done.
TD

This sounds like you read the book " Outliers"....if not read it....
MY
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2010, 11:27:19 PM »
Mike:

Yes, I've read "Outliers."  I figured I had my 10,000 hours on golf course architecture in by the time I was 25.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2010, 06:55:39 AM »
Mike:

Yes, I've read "Outliers."  I figured I had my 10,000 hours on golf course architecture in by the time I was 25.


Tom,
I am quite sure you did....but industry wide I would bet there are some near retirement age that don't have the 10,000 yet. ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ian Andrew

Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2010, 08:49:05 AM »
Stanley Thompson

Depends

Was by far the most successful architect in Canada with over 80 new courses built.
He employed close to a 1000 men in the 1920's building golf courses.
He lived very comfortably throughout.

But he went bankrupt twice.
Was known to regularly bounce a check.

And upon his death left only debt for his wife.
They had to leave Dormie House immediately with nothing.

TEPaul

Re: Were the ODG (Old Dead Guys) GCAs good business men?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2010, 09:13:47 AM »
Chip:

Great subject really but just asking if the ODG's were good business men is probably limiting. I like what Bill Brightly said which was one would have to look at them individually to answer that.

On the other hand, trying to ask what got some of them into this business would probably be too broad, even if, to me at least, that is the more interesting question. And to pose that question by parceling things into various significant eras is probably the best way to do it. If you don't know what I mean by that I'd be glad to explain.

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