[A.G._Crockett]

You're getting some good suggestions here, especially the ideas about a Ross-Strantz theme.  I'd stay away from the Pit, I think, on a trip of this sort.

As John Moore said, the course at NCSU in Raleigh is worth the time to see.  Other than that, I wouldn't worry too much about the public offerings in the RDU area; there are some fun, affordable courses, but no must-sees.  The drive to Pinehurst is so short that it would be worth the effort, and Tot Hill Farm isn't an outrageous drive from Raleigh, either. 

If you ARE going to play only in the Triangle, try all three of the university courses.  They are so different that it is an interesting comparison if nothing else.  Chapel Ridge is pretty good among the daily fees, and there are others as well that are perfectly adequate.  But as I said, none would be high on the Doak Scale.

[Bill Brightly]

I copied this post from Kevin Lynch's reply on Anthony Gray's thread: I should have left you a long time ago.  I think Kevin gives compelling reasons to check out Tobacco Road!

Quote from: John Shimp on Yesterday at 11:53:40 PM
Tobacco Rd is hands down winner for me too.  Greens are not that interesting and as soon as you learn to hit away from the trouble the course begins to play quite easy in my view.  I know people love it here and I like it but it just doesnt resist scoring on or around the green on most holes and the visual stimulation goes away after a couple visits.


I agree, but only to a point.  Much of Tobacco's supposed "difficulty" is in its blind shots and visual intimidation (look hard / play easy).  As a result, you will naturally lose that with repeated plays.  I've always believed the one thing "overrated" about Tobacco Road is its difficulty.

And there's no way you can ever replicate the "first time" you see a Strantz design.  It can only be "like nothing I've ever seen before" once.

However, I wouldn't say that it fits the description that there is "less there" architecturally than initially thought.  Even though it will get easier with repeated plays (but won't every course?), there still is enough variety in the strategic options and the pin position / tee combinations that it still holds up.

[A.G._Crockett]

I copied this post from Kevin Lynch's reply on Anthony Gray's thread: I should have left you a long time ago.  I think Kevin gives compelling reasons to check out Tobacco Road!

Quote from: John Shimp on Yesterday at 11:53:40 PM
Tobacco Rd is hands down winner for me too.  Greens are not that interesting and as soon as you learn to hit away from the trouble the course begins to play quite easy in my view.  I know people love it here and I like it but it just doesnt resist scoring on or around the green on most holes and the visual stimulation goes away after a couple visits.


I agree, but only to a point.  Much of Tobacco's supposed "difficulty" is in its blind shots and visual intimidation (look hard / play easy).  As a result, you will naturally lose that with repeated plays.  I've always believed the one thing "overrated" about Tobacco Road is its difficulty.

And there's no way you can ever replicate the "first time" you see a Strantz design.  It can only be "like nothing I've ever seen before" once.

However, I wouldn't say that it fits the description that there is "less there" architecturally than initially thought.  Even though it will get easier with repeated plays (but won't every course?), there still is enough variety in the strategic options and the pin position / tee combinations that it still holds up.

Having just made my yearly pilgrimage to True Blue and Caledonia, in addition to many trips to the Road and to Tot Hill Farm, I'll stand on the following points:
     1. The visual appeal and GCA artistry of Strantz courses never goes away for me, and Tobacco Road is certainly no exception.
     2. When you talk about difficulty at TR, you have to be clear about what you mean.  The course is not difficult for a low handicapper, even on the first play.  It can be extremely difficult for certain mid to high handicappers regardless of how many times they've played it.  That's why from 6300 yds. it has a course rating of 70.8, but a slope of 142; that is not a combination that you see very often.  A slope of 142 from that yardage can portend doom for someone who is crooked or very short off the tee.  This is, IMO, what keeps TR from reaching the Top 100 status that True Blue and Caledonia have reached.
     3. If you aren't moved by TR, if you don't laugh out loud while you play it, and if you don't want to go back regardless of how many times you've been there, then you don't like art, you don't like GCA, and you may have a dead soul.
     4. TR is a must-play if you are in the area.  With all due respect to #2, TR is above it in my book as something that must be seen.

[John Moore II]

Rob: For all the talk of Mid Pines and Southern Pines, they are good courses, but nothing unique to the game of golf. Needles is hands down better than either of them. I've played just about every course mentioned in this thread. If you want to play 4 Donald Ross courses, then go with what everyone is saying. If you actually want to see some variety, try something else. Certainly Tobacco Road should be on the trip. Beyond that and Needles, I would try to see work by as many designers as possible due to the fact that you live quite the distance away (if you still live in Asia) and might have real trouble getting back. Designers in the Sandhills as follows: Donald Ross, RTJ, Rees Jones, Tom Fazio, Ellis Maples, Dan Maples, Gary Player, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Mike Strantz, Coore & Crenshaw (if you can get on), Tom Doak (within 2 hours), Pete Dye (within 1 hour) and who knows who else if you are willing to drive to Myrtle Beach, roughly 3 hours from Pinehurst.

[Steve_Lovett]

If #2's greens are in lousy shape I would skip it.  So much of the magic of that place is in and around the greens.  But - go out very late one afternoon and walk it.

Spend some time on the range and practice areas at Pinehurst.

I'd do 36 holes of #4 & maybe #1 or #3 one day at the Resort, do 36 of Pine Needles and Mid-Pines across the street from one another on another day, and hit Tobacco Road into or out of Pinehurst on the way to or from RDU.

With access, play Forest Creek rather than a second round after #4 at the resort.

Also - visit the Tufts Archives at the library.  Walk around the village of Pinehurst - and downtown in the Town of Southern Pines if you have time.  Both are quaint.  Have a pork chop and a drink at the Pine Crest Inn - the bar there is not to be missed. 

 

[John Shimp]

Thanks for the replies on TR.  AG Crockett, I love the way it looks.  I just don't think it plays that exciting.  I agree with your point on art because its visually something else and really fun and really new.  But the ground doesn't repel balls there.  Its not a tricky course or exciting course to play along the ground. The greens aren't the fun or hard to chip to or putt.  Those factors significantly take away the GCA element of TR for me versus many other course i've played that are much less visually exciting but play way better the TR.  Not trying to change your view or love for the place just trying to explain my feeling about TR a bit more.  I do really like TR and would play there any day.  Not saying its B golf course or anything.

[Jud_T]

I would definitely play Pine Needles and Forest Creek North if you can gain access...Tobacco Road is probably worth at least one trip-it's very polarizing around these parts. 

[hhuffines]

Rob,

You're getting some really good advice here but I would add that Raleigh CC and Hope Valley in Durham are two "restored" Ross courses that are well done and fun to play.  The staff at Hope Valley are some of the nicest people in golf and Raleigh shouldn't be too difficult to arrange.  At least those two would cut down on your drive time.

Hart

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