[mike_malone]

 I can't figure why some rate this course so highly. I like #8 and #11 but most of the rest are forgettable. I would throw this in with Meadowlands.

[mike_malone]

 I much preferred the two greens on #5. At least it gave the hole and the course some distinctiveness.

[Mark McKeever]

I can't figure why some rate this course so highly. I like #8 and #11 but most of the rest are forgettable. I would throw this in with Meadowlands.

Bunkering edges aside, they are typically pretty well placed.  Its on a great piece of land to boot.

Mark

[mike_malone]

 Bunkering on #17 is very weak way to protect a short 5. At least 6 of the holes are flat. Compared to the top courses in Philly I would not call this a great piece of land .

[David Stamm]

The bunkers look horrible. Were they "shearoned"?

+1. Goodness they look bad. The property looks very good.

[Steve Kline]

Thought the same thing as everyone else about the bunkers. Even some of the Thomas fairway bunkers (based on appearance) seem totally out of place. For example the ones left of the 10th fairway seem useless. Why would you go that far left? That line is completely blocked out by trees.

It also looked to me like the fairways had lost some width in areas since some of the bunkering seemed pretty far off the fairway. And many of the greens seemed just to be ovals or circles. I wonder how much the grass lines have changed/shrunk over the years.

[Mike Sweeney]

I can't figure why some rate this course so highly. I like #8 and #11 but most of the rest are forgettable. I would throw this in with Meadowlands.

Some excellent architectural analysis by Mayday.  

I have not been there in 20 years but Whitemarsh was the site of many rounds, caddying loops and Candlelight Dances as a kid.

1. The Par 3's are very diverse, with a Long, a Short, a Sidehill, an Uphill. Thomas used the terrain nicely.

2. The Fitz Dixon (7,8) holes were always a little awkward across the street, but I agree with Mayday 8 is a good one.

3. It does look like a few trees need to be pruned.  

4. I can't say it is a great piece of property. The flat holes are really flat and in the old days often had drainage issues. The hillside holes are pretty steep. It does not roll like Merion or Aronimink or obviously Pine Valley, but it is certainly not a bad piece of property.

5. Okay here goes, I kind of like the look of the bunkering. It is a Thomas course and while obviously not a Thomas replica, they should be distinct from other bunkers in Philly?

Thanks for posting Joe.

[TEPaul]

Even though Ed Shearon was (is?) Whitemarsh's architect in recent times it was my understanding that bunker look was done in-house, at least the first examples of it (on the last 2-3 holes first). I believe they thought it was a decent example of Thomas's style. Only problem is I don't believe Thomas even begun his fairly unique jaggy edged bunker style until he got to California and perhaps even after hooked up with Billy Bell.

I don't believe Whitemarsh Valley (Thomas's father's estate before the golf course) ever had bunkering that looked anything like that or even anything that looked like what became his California bunker style.

I think George Thomas's Jr. left Philadelphia for the West Coast around 1918-19. His apparent primary reason to go to Southern California was it offered a better growing environment for roses as Thomas was a world class breeder and grower. He also wrote a book about deep-sea sport fishing.

I played quite a lot of tournament golf at Whitemarsh Valley (GAP stuff like the Philadelphia Amateur and such). I always liked the course but it is somewhat inconsistent in spots such as the aforementioned 7th and 8th which always seemed to me to be from another golf course, and then those two holes down on the creek plain (the really long #5 and the par 5 #6 have always been prone to severe problems from really bad flooding events.

[Kyle Harris]

I can't figure why some rate this course so highly. I like #8 and #11 but most of the rest are forgettable. I would throw this in with Meadowlands.

Let's not get carried away here.

Whitemarsh is a favorite of mine. Looking past some of the aesthetic issues, it's a treat of a golf course not without controversy (a good thing, IMO).

I believe the 9th is one of the more polarizing holes in the region?

I like it, along with another infamous 9th hole on the other side of MONTgomery County from PHILadelphia.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Whitemarsh is a lovely track but definitely a bit overrated. There is way too much out of bounds right and the course has tremendous drainage problems. Frequently the "upper nine" holes of the course are the only ones open since they are on the highest and dryest ground.

Personally holes 6-9 are my favorite stretch, even thought 6 is unique in that it has out of bounds left AND right. 18 is a very solid finisher. The flourtown course at Philly Cricket right down the street shares the same creek and is a MUCH better golf course.

One thing about Whitemarsh is that it might have the best Men's grille I've been to. The Men's locker room and grille is in its own separate building across the parking lot from the main clubhouse. You can look at pictures of famous Pros playing the course, since they used to host a tour event in the 50's. And the exterior and interior of the building are really beautiful. You can see the side of it in Joe's last photo.

[Mike Sweeney]

Personally holes 6-9 are my favorite stretch, even thought 6 is unique in that it has out of bounds left AND right. 18 is a very solid finisher. The flourtown course at Philly Cricket right down the street shares the same creek and is a MUCH better golf course.

One thing about Whitemarsh is that it might have the best Men's grille I've been to. The Men's locker room and grille is in its own separate building across the parking lot from the main clubhouse. You can look at pictures of famous Pros playing the course, since they used to host a tour event in the 50's. And the exterior and interior of the building are really beautiful. You can see the side of it in Joe's last photo.

Bill

If I remember correctly the men's grille is the old clubhouse and the new clubhouse was built in the mid to late 70's just when I started playing there. My Uncle Frank was a member for years and it is my impression that Whitemarsh was less family oriented before the pool and new clubhouse were built. I would guess that holes 6 and 9 took a setback when they opened the new clubhouse?

Another question, are holes 7 and 8 original holes? I have this feeling that there were some holes down by the driving range and they had the drainage issues. Thus the club did a 100 year lease with Fitz Dixon (member and owner of the 76ers back in the day) and created holes 7 and 8?

Again, this is going back on some old Philly memories so I could be way off.

[Joe Bausch]

At least by 1939 those two holes were in place as this Dallin aerial suggests.

[Joe Bausch]

Oops, didn't realize there was an even earlier Dallin, from 1927, that also shows those two holes in place.

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

From the trail of articles you've uncovered, as well as some of the Flynn sketches that exist in Wayne Morrison's collection, I thnk there is very little George Thomas on the property, and it's tough to tell exactly how much was there to begin with as Samuel Heebner had such a big role (who had prior experience at Philly Cricket).

If anything, I'd think today's course is more of a Donald Rynn or a William Floss design, and without wanting to start another attribution war, I too doubt that the bunkers ever looked anything like they do now in their history.

I don't find them as offensive as some, as they do add a distinct look to the Philly market.   I suspect I'd like them less if they were on the west coast, where it seems now every redesign project is trying to look like Thomas/MacKenzie/Bell, whether that's historically accurate or not.

[mike_malone]

 #8 looks even more interesting in the 27 photo and #11 seems more modest. #17 doesn't have the present annoying overbunkering.

[TEPaul]

"Another question, are holes 7 and 8 original holes? I have this feeling that there were some holes down by the driving range and they had the drainage issues. Thus the club did a 100 year lease with Fitz Dixon (member and owner of the 76ers back in the day) and created holes 7 and 8?"


Mike Sweeney:

This is a good question but it seems Joe Bausch just showed a Dallin aerial of those holes in 1927. First of all, I don't know that we should automatically assume the land that #7 and #8 are on ever belonged to Fitz Dixon. I realize his massive estate (one of the 5-6 largest in recent Philly area history (app. 1,000 acres) is contiguous to a part of Whitemarsh Valley but I'm certainly not sure he or his family ever owned the land that #7 and #8 are on. It may not be that hard for me to find out eventually as a friend of mine bought the Fitz Dixon estate not long ago----or what is left of it.

And don't forget, the land that Whitemarsh Valley is basically on was another massive Philly area estate, Bloomfield, that preceding the golf course and belonged to George Thomas Jr's father----a Philadelphia financier of great wealth who was one of the partners, perhaps even the managing partner, of the early American mega financial company Drexel & Co. As such George Thomas Sr was a co-partner with the likes of Horatio Gates Lloyd, the Merion East at Ardmore angel for his club, and also a co-partner with my own great grandfather, James W. Paul, the last member of the Drexel family to be a part of that company, a part of whose land, Woodcrest in Wayne/Radnor, Pa, eventually became the Ross St. David's GC.

As another interesting Philly golf course factoid, I recently found out that my own grandfather, A.J. Drexel Paul, who belonged to the original St David's GC in Wayne, as well as Merion Cricket Club, when with a group from Merion bought the land that Gulph Mills GC is now on, first offered the land to St David's GC. They refused, and so, the club GMGC was formed and eventually he sold some of his own residential land to St David's GC which is where they are now.

[Joe Bausch]

I'd forgotten that in an earlier WVCC thread I posted this 1908 article that details the course.  I'm trying to understand it fully, but it will take some time.  It seems some of the course has remained, but clearly some has changed.  And I do have their recent history book at home, which I will check tonight.

(click on each figure to expand it if your browser doesn't automatically do so)

[Joe Bausch]

Also from an earlier thread is this 1919 article detailing planned changes by Ross.

[Mark McKeever]

"Another question, are holes 7 and 8 original holes? I have this feeling that there were some holes down by the driving range and they had the drainage issues. Thus the club did a 100 year lease with Fitz Dixon (member and owner of the 76ers back in the day) and created holes 7 and 8?"


Mike Sweeney:

This is a good question but it seems Joe Bausch just showed a Dallin aerial of those holes in 1927. First of all, I don't know that we should automatically assume the land that #7 and #8 are on ever belonged to Fitz Dixon. I realize his massive estate (one of the 5-6 largest in recent Philly area history (app. 1,000 acres) is contiguous to a part of Whitemarsh Valley but I'm certainly not sure he or his family ever owned the land that #7 and #8 are on. It may not be that hard for me to find out eventually as a friend of mine bought the Fitz Dixon estate not long ago----or what is left of it.

And don't forget, the land that Whitemarsh Valley is basically on was another massive Philly area estate, Bloomfield, that preceding the golf course and belonged to George Thomas Jr's father----a Philadelphia financier of great wealth who was one of the partners, perhaps even the managing partner, of the early American mega financial company Drexel & Co. As such George Thomas Sr was a co-partner with the likes of Horatio Gates Lloyd, the Merion East at Ardmore angel for his club, and also a co-partner with my own great grandfather, James W. Paul, the last member of the Drexel family to be a part of that company, a part of whose land, Woodcrest in Wayne/Radnor, Pa, eventually became the Ross St. David's GC.

As another interesting Philly golf course factoid, I recently found out that my own grandfather, A.J. Drexel Paul, who belonged to the original St David's GC in Wayne, as well as Merion Cricket Club, when with a group from Merion bought the land that Gulph Mills GC is now on, first offered the land to St David's GC. They refused, and so, the club GMGC was formed and eventually he sold some of his own residential land to St David's GC which is where they are now.

Thanks for the short history lesson!  Some pretty interesting notes!

Mark

[TEPaul]

Joe:

The descriptions of holes #7-9 in that 1908 article do not seem to match those present holes or even the 1927 holes even though the description of the views from them earlier in the article do since those holes are on some of the highest ground on that golf course.

[Mike Sweeney]

Joe:

The descriptions of holes #7-9 in that 1908 article do not seem to match those present holes or even the 1927 holes even though the description of the views from them earlier in the article do since those holes are on some of the highest ground on that golf course.

The third hole is listed as a 400 yard par 4 in the first article, today it is the Par 5 (i think).

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I think the 3rd is a par 4 but I could be wrong about that. The 5th is a par 5.

Belay that; you're right, the 3rd is a par 5. So much for my observational retention no matter how many times I've played that golf course.  

The one I remember best is the 4th. Man was that thing long for a par 3 when playing the tips. It was a great example of some of those super long Philadelphia par 3s from the old days. I even remember in the old Whitemarsh Classic many of the pros were using 3 woods to that par 3.

[Joe Bausch]

Based upon early articles I have on Whitemarsh, together with info from the Labbance/White book, I'm confident I'm close with the original routing of Whitemarsh as shown in the figure below shown on top of a current Google aerial.  You can compare this to the current routing shown at the beginning of this thread.

Note:  on hole #5 I'm thinking the route in red is better than blue.  You can read the Public Ledger 1908 description of the holes to see how I came up with my figure below.

(click on the figure to expand it if your browser doesn't automatically do so!)

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