[Brent Hutto]

OK, sorry. I couldn't resist a slightly tongue in cheek title.

On my trip last week I could have played at either Royal St. Georges or Rye on the Thursday afternoon. I chose the former and literally could not have had a more exciting and enjoyable day. But I am curious to hear from those who've played at both courses...

Three questions. Which course is more fun to play on one given day in June? Which course would be more fun to play on one given day in November? And which course would be more enjoyable to play frequently as a member, year-round?

Bonus question. Would the answers to these three questions be different for a scratch golfer versus a 15-handicapper?

[Bill_McBride]

This is one of those Ginger or Mary Ann questions!  I played each of these legendary classic courses last summer and have to say there is no way I could choose one over the other.  Both are great links courses that are fun to play.  The weather could be great or awful in June or November at either, both are sand based and I think would play fast even in a downpour (which is what we experienced at Rye in September!).

The only slight difference is that Rye has one hole, #11, that's really out of place, with a pond you drive over and lines that are hard to decipher.  At the same time it has a couple of the best holes on a hog back you've ever played, and a brilliant long par 4 with a completely blind second (or third) over a high ridge.

Ginger or Mary Ann?  Aarrr, take 'em both!   

[Mark Chaplin]

Brent,

Rye is a fabulous winter course but with no fairway watering can get as hard as nails in the summer making holes like the 4th and 18th almost impossible.

The memberships of both clubs like tradition, dress properly and tend to belong to other clubs as well. Lunch is a serious part of the day and the wine lists are first rate.

Sandwich has some world class holes and only a couple I'm not keen on - 3rd depite changes still a long boring par 3, 5th small driving area easy to get unlucky kick and flat uninspiring green and surround. Rye has 1st, 10th and indescribable 11th as average holes but great par 3s.

For me Sandwich nails it - it's also closer to Deal!!

Playing both on the same day guarantees not getting either!!

[Brent Hutto]

...5th small driving area easy to get unlucky kick and flat uninspiring green and surround.

I'll agree with you concerning the fifth green but disagree concerning the landing area. There's a lot of small, cambered places where you'd love to put your tee shot at RSG. The landing area on the fifth is sort of the ultimate, over-the-top version of that concept. But why I like it is the variety of oddball shots you'll be presented with when you miss that tiny sweet spot. But the green complex (such as it is) might be the weakest one on the course.

Playing both on the same day guarantees not getting either!!

Without having attempted it, I'd tend to agree. On my next visit I am certainly going to arrange my agenda around the full two rounds plus a long lunch at Royal St. Georges. If possible I'd love to do the same at Rye but I would be willing to "settle" for a one-round day there if necessary.

[Bill_McBride]

Seems to me it's a pretty long drive from Rye to Sandwich.  Why not a day at each (36 with lunch)?

[Scott Warren]

I've played Sandwich twice and Rye three times (twice in late summer, once in April).

Question 1: Sandwich.
Question 2: Sandwich.
Question 3: Sandwich.

Sandwich is bulletproof, Rye is great despite many weaknesses that its many GCA disciples flatly refuse the existance of.

[Bill_McBride]

I've played Sandwich twice and Rye three times (twice in late summer, once in April).

Question 1: Sandwich.
Question 2: Sandwich.
Question 3: Sandwich.

Sandwich is bulletproof, Rye is great despite many weaknesses that its many GCA disciples flatly refuse the existance of.

Please list these deficiencies beyond #11.  (I was enthralled in spite of the rain pissing down on us for the entire front nine)

[Scott Warren]

Bill, this is just one man's opinion. I will admit Rye grows on me every time I play there, but I can't get by:

#1: has next to nothing going on besides the hidden width of the fairway beyond the dune on the right that extends about 150y from the tee. It's easy to defend it by saying there's nothing "wrong" with it, but we're talking about the creme of the world's crop here.

#8: On a macro level I love the hole, but the green is a poor shape/size for the condition the course is maintained in.

#10: A hole with so little happening tee to green other than the opportunity to lose your ball on both the right and left needs a cracking green site to enthrall you, but instead #10 offers probably yhe most one-dimenssional green complex on the course (though #1 makes it fight for the crown.

#11: I can accept the lake OR the gorse-caused blindness. Not both. Super blind with gorse tight to the fairway left and a lake right. That ain't right. Pity, because the second shot, if somehow you've managed to work out where the fairway is and hit it, is pretty cool to the angled green over that shallow gully.

#17: It's not shite, but it's significantly weaker than any of Sandwich's one-shotters.

You can also form a compelling argument that #4 is too narrow and the green on #7 is too small for the drama of its surrounds and its elevated high wind location, if we want to start splitting hairs, which I think the very best courses deserve.

But that's just me...

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, this is just one man's opinion. I will admit Rye grows on me every time I play there, but I can't get by:

#1: has next to nothing going on besides the hidden width of the fairway beyond the dune on the right that extends about 150y from the tee. It's easy to defend it by saying there's nothing "wrong" with it, but we're talking about the creme of the world's crop here.

#8: On a macro level I love the hole, but the green is a poor shape/size for the condition the course is maintained in.

#10: A hole with so little happening tee to green other than the opportunity to lose your ball on both the right and left needs a cracking green site to enthrall you, but instead #10 offers probably yhe most one-dimenssional green complex on the course (though #1 makes it fight for the crown.

#11: I can accept the lake OR the gorse-caused blindness. Not both. Super blind with gorse tight to the fairway left and a lake right. That ain't right. Pity, because the second shot, if somehow you've managed to work out where the fairway is and hit it, is pretty cool to the angled green over that shallow gully.

#17: It's not shite, but it's significantly weaker than any of Sandwich's one-shotters.

You can also form a compelling argument that #4 is too narrow and the green on #7 is too small for the drama of its surrounds and its elevated high wind location, if we want to start splitting hairs, which I think the very best courses deserve.

But that's just me...

Can't disagree.....but there is just something so mystically cool about Rye that I put it with Sandwich in equal desire to go back to play.

Maybe it's Bernardo Darwin and all the tales of "The President's Putter!"

[Brent Hutto]

So speaking as a high handicapper, one of the things I most admire about RSG is how easy most of the tee shots are if your goal is modest (i.e. somehow get a ball onto short grass or at worst the first cut of rough) and how hard many tee shots are for a good player who wants to be aggressive on his second shot. Even playing in a bit of breeze I could see that hole after hole offered an accessible target for me but the pro showing me around would point out "Position A" when we got up in the fairway and it was a tough target indeed.

I get the feeling Rye may offer a selection more weighted toward tee shots that are just plain old tough to keep the ball in decent shape no matter what level of player or how cautious his tactics. Is that a fair statement?

At Royal Birkdale for instance I wasn't particularly aware of many specific spots that offered great advantages as driving targets. I find the Ocean Course at Kiawah to be somewhat reminiscent of Royal St. George's in this regard but it is done more with interesting green contours and less with ground movement in the fairways and semi-blindness off the tees.

Can't disagree.....but there is just some so mystically cool about Rye that I put it with Sandwich in equal desire to go back to play.

Maybe it's Bernardo Darwin and all the tales of "The President's Putter!"

P.S. I'll take you at your word, especially seeing how I've heard similar reactions from others. But without trying to be clever I can say honestly that Royal St. George's has a pretty good "mystical cool" vibe going itself. Even some of the spots I most enjoy as golfing environs (Kiawah, Dornoch, Brora) do not give me a chill up the spine just recalling the sound of the wind in the dunes grass and the views of St. George's Cross flying way over yonder by the clubhouse. If there's even more than that at Rye...well, I just gotta get me some!

[Scott Warren]

I would say Rye is kinda like a seaside Swinley Forest.

1. A mystique forged by privacy of their cherry-picked memberships.
2. Some of the best holes in GB&I.
3. Some undeniably poor holes for the league of courses they are discussed/compared with.
4. Brilliant par threes.
5. Only one par five, which is one of the lesser holes.
6. A sire named Colt.
7. Awesome lunches.

You get similar experiences from both. If you go there just for a hardcore quality golf course experience, you're missing the point. They are among the most worthy clubs to visit in GB&I, but their courses when it gets down to bare-bones 18 holes can't compete with the very best of their contemporaries, despite being as fun, or sometimes even moreso, to play than some of the Mac Daddies.

Just my opinion!

[Sean_A]

Yes, I think Sandwich is the better course and indeed it is one of the best championship courses I have played where the test drills equally down the handicap ranges - it is playable for all. The front nine is also one of the best nines I know of.  That said, Sandwich should be better because it is one a better piece of land and uses more space.  Even so, Sandwich doesn't blow Rye away like it should.  The main reason is Rye's par 3s absolutely blow Sandwich's out of the water.  I also think the par 4s at Rye are a more diverse collection.  Rye is getting stick for some holes such as #s 1, 10, 11 and 17.  I don't know what there is to complain number 1.  Call it a par 4 if it makes yiu happy.  #10 is admitedly not a hole to brag about, but then I don't care for #16 at Sandwich.  #11 is fine and #17 is a very good hole.  What Rye lacks is a killer par for like #4 at Sandwich. 

I will likely always prefer Rye to Sandwich because I am a sucker for short courses punching way above their weight, I don't need to play champiosmhip courses to get a thrill and Rye is far cheaper than Sandwich.  Granted, while Rye's house has a shabby chic thing going on, Sandwich has a great house and I would rather sit in front of their boards than Darwin's chair anyday.  Both towns, Rye and Sandwich are lovely and the view sfrom the courses are not great, but good at each establishment.  Both courses are in my top 10 I would recommend, but Rye just pisp it as my favourite of the two.

Ciao   

[Andrew Summerell]

I love Rye because it’s so much fun, but I wouldn’t want to play it every week of my life.

I love Royal St Georges (& played one of my best rounds in the last 5 years), but I wouldn’t want to play it every week of my life.

But if I lived in the area, I’d join Royal Cinque Ports, because I could play & enjoy that course & club every week for the rest of my life.

[Bill_McBride]

I love Rye because it’s so much fun, but I wouldn’t want to play it every week of my life.

I love Royal St Georges (& played one of my best rounds in the last 5 years), but I wouldn’t want to play it every week of my life.

But if I lived in the area, I’d join Royal Cinque Ports, because I could play & enjoy that course & club every week for the rest of my life.

100% in agreement, great assessment.

[JNC Lyon]

Deal.  Is that even a question?

[JNC Lyon]

Okay, let's see if I can overcome my crippling bias and give some sort of answer to the thread. 

I haven't yet played Rye.  However, I did get to play Sandwich twice during my trip to the UK.  I played it once in early February, when it was 40 degrees fahrenheit at maximum and blow at 40 mph the whole time.  I then played it again in mid-March, when it was 55 degrees and a relatively calm day.  The latter day may have been the most ideal weather I played in during my entire trip.  However, the first round was still damn fun.  Sure, I did not even play close to my best.  However, I had a lot of fun trying to hit different shots in the wind and judge the bounces off the semi-frozen turf.  It was great, great fun, and I probably enjoyed the course more the first time than I did the second.

I think people automatically think that because Sandwich is an Open Rota course, it is simply a tough, straightforward test.  This impression is hard to get out of one's head when playing it.  Yet there is PLENTY of quirk out there to keep the most ardent GCA enthusiasts satisfied.  How about the 4th? The blind approach to the 5th and the tee shot at the 7th?  The hidden green at the 8th? The halfpipe green at the 9th?  The funky 13th green and the Suez Canal?  The 17th fairway?  There are plenty of holes out there that are highly unique and out of the ordinary.

Sandwich is a great pick when down in the area, no matter what the weather.  It's tons of fun, as long as you accept that you will shoot a slightly higher score than at other links on the South Coast.

Of course, if you had to pick a course in Kent or Sussex to join as a member, why wouldn't you choose Royal Cinque Ports?

[Scott Warren]

I don't know what there is to complain number 1.  Call it a par 4 if it makes yiu happy.

You could call it the world's longest par three or world's shortest par six, I still wouldn't think it's a particularly good hole. My issues with it have nothing to do with the par of the hole and everything to do with its features.

[Mark Chaplin]

A good many Rye members only visit in the winter.

The finest piece of history at Rye are the 20+ membership application books dating back to the 1940s there are numerous examples R&A, Swinley Forest,  Huntercombe, Brancaster, Pine Valley, Whites, Boodles, MCC, etc listed under other clubs.

For some great golf stories check out www.halfordhewitt.com under publications are two sets of trivia, after the records come some
very funny stories such as the two girls taken to the team hotel who'd long since lost their amateur status!

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