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George Freeman

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Re: Pinehurst No. 2....The Emperor Has No Clothes
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2010, 12:06:30 AM »
Thought this might add to the conversation.  Pay particular attention to the last 15-30 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opiES91N474&feature=player_embedded
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Steve Kline

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Re: Pinehurst No. 2....The Emperor Has No Clothes
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2010, 11:48:15 AM »
I said I further post in response to Anthony - and since I'm home sick from work today - I now have the chance. The first four (or few) holes are not the same with only differing lengths. Also, differing lengths are part of what makes holes unique. I'm having trouble recalling a course I've played where every hole was the same length - since length makes no difference in making holes different. So here's a description of the first four holes (I typically play the blue tees, but have played the white some and the Open tees about five times).

Hole #1
Just under 400 yards it is a relatively short par 4 and a gentle start to the round. Typically it is anywhere from a driver-8 iron to driver-wedge for me depending on the tees and the wind. Green angles from front right to back left - slightly. Green is not nearly as raised up as much as others although there is a deep and steep drop off on the front left and the left greenside bunker is pretty deep. Once on the green it is relatively flat except when you near the front edge. For many it would seem that the place to miss the green is right - since you avoid the deep greenside bunker left. However, this is the hardest spot from which to get up and down, especially with the pin on the right, because there is a subtle tilt from right to left on the green. By missing it in the bunker you playing uphill to the green - which is always a key to getting up and down #2. From the fairway, playing from the left side allows you to hit into the slope of the green to hold it more easily but this eliminates any chance at getting close to left hand pin placements. The ideal spot is guarded by a single fairway bunker. Therefore, to open those hole locations you must play down the right.

Hole #2
After an easy opener you jump right into a quite difficult hole. Depending on tees and wind this is anymore from a driver-hybrid to driver-6 iron for me. The green angles significantly from front left to back right and is dominated by a large mound on the middle right of the green. The mound is actually half on and half off the green. There really aren't any greenside bunkers that come into play. The green is raised up significantly on all sides. Missing the green to the right is a no-no. Front left is my preferred spot to miss the green because I have the length of the green to chip with. Also, long left can be a good spot to miss if the pin is tucked behind the mound. The mound influences the break on the green as well as the putts tending to break away from the clubhouse. In trying to attack the green the ideal line of play is from the farthest left part of the hole - however this is protected by a string of three fairway bunkers. Playing to this side far left side takes the mound on the green out of play. However, the green sits almost straight down the right side tree line. This, in addition to the hole being shorter on this line, sucks almost everyone to driving down the right side of the hole. While it is a club or two shorter the approach shot is much more difficult because of the large fronting mound. This hole doesn't sound anything like #1 to me.

Hole #3
This is a short par 4. Typically I lay up with a hybrid and have a wedge or sand wedge to the green. The green sits at fairway level in the front. On the left is a deep green side bunker. On the right is a shallower bunker. Over the green is a steep drop off. The green tilts significantly from back to front and left to right. The left to right tilt is missed by almost everyone since you can't see it from even a distance, but it plays an important role in the hole's play. Very few people miss to the right of the green. I think this is because they can't see what is over there and typically at #2 that scares you off. So people often miss in the deeper greenside bunker on the left and then have to play downhill rather than missing in the shallower greenside bunker on the right and playing uphill. The green has the most internal movement of any of the first four greens. It took me hundreds of rounds over many years to finally figure it out. Prior to figuring it out I rarely made birdie on the hole, but now I have a much better chance. This is a true skyline green, which was improved dramatically before the first U.S. Open as several tall pine trees behind the green were removed. This made back pin placements very scary to hit to. Off the tee there a couple of fairway bunkers left as well as out of bounds and to the right is a waste area. The ideal angle into the green is from as close to the waste area as possible. This doesn't sound anything like holes 1 or 2 to me.

Hole #4
Par 5 of around 500 yards. While the tee shot is slightly downhill, the landing area is an up slope. From the white tees it is easily reachable, perhaps with an iron for me. From the blue tees I have reached it but it is typically with a 3-wood. Drive down the left and you layup can be blind, but this shortens the hole. The green flows down the hillside from the right and meshes in seamlessly. It is raised up in the front and back left. There is bunker short right as well as a bunker running the full left side of the green. The green tilts from back right to front left but it is not angle to any degree. The left side of the green is relatively flat. Anywhere short or left of the middle of the green is the best spot to miss. Again, this doesn't sound anything like the first 3 holes.

I'll leave my hole descriptions here, but #5 is an all-world par 4. An absolutely tremendous whole that must be feared even though no water comes into play (and the OB really doesn't either unless you can shank your driver).

I think many of us are guilty of playing a course once and drawing conclusions. I've learned a lot from this sight regarding a course I've played maybe once or twice by reading the thoughts of people who have played the course many, many times. Any well designed course has intricacies that must be learned over time.

Now Pinehurst certainly has its problems. It's expensive, but not much more so than Pebble, Kohler, or Bandon (comparable resorts). Plus you can be a member at Pinehurst, which is very, very cheap to do. Also, the fairways, playing angles and rough lines (and consequently the strategy) were destroyed by the first two U.S. Opens. Hopefully Coore and Crenshaw bring that back and the resort doesn't lose them again. Just as importantly the course has generally been in poor condition the last 5-10 years. The entire course is kept way too soft. The greens have been somewhat overrun by poa. And, overseeding I think has generally resulted in poorer playing conditions. Given these problems I would certainly be underwhelmed if I played the course just once. But if the playing angles are restored and firm and fast conditions brought back then there is no doubt in my mind that Pinehurst is one of the truly greatest course I've ever played. It is full of strategy, tests virtually every iron in my bag each round, requires a deft touch around the green, and makes sure you are comfortable making 6-8 footers for par (it's rare to leave a tap-in once you've missed the green).

Steve Kline

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Re: Pinehurst No. 2....The Emperor Has No Clothes
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2010, 11:49:43 AM »
Matt

fair enough, but i can say i enjoyed The Old Course a zillion times more the first time i played it versus #2.

My guess is that most of us have read many, many posts, books, stories about TOC as well as seen several Opens held there. Therefore you much more familiar with the course prior to your first play than most of us would be at Pinehurst.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Pinehurst No. 2....The Emperor Has No Clothes
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2010, 12:19:27 PM »
Although this may be the opposite of the intended effect, I really want to go play Pinehurst Number 2 after reading this thread!  I think the great green sites and the impossibility of losing a golf ball is good enough for me.  I mean, really, want more could one want out of a golf course?  I have not played #2, but if all 18 greens are world-class as a set, doesn't that make it a great golf course with 18 great holes.  World-class greens dictate strategy back to the tee and thus create interesting holes.  Greens are also the most egalitarian features of a golf course.  Every golfer, big and small, young and old, must confront the green and its challenges on every hole. 

Let's say there are two courses.  Course A is brilliant and dramatic from tee to green.  Yet its greens are flat, boring, and uniform as a set.  Course B is wide open off the tee and a relatively easy test of ball-striking.  However, the greens are wild, varied, and possess endless interest.  I will choose to play Course B 95 times out of 100.

If I have learned one thing from being in London, it's that it is very difficult to judge a golf course after one play.  Like it or not, one play at a course will give the golfer a distorted perspective that is either overly positive or overly negative.  I gained a much greater appreciation for courses like Deal and Prestwick over here by simply playing an extra nine holes!  Furthermore, a bad round or bad stretch of holes can make a golfer neglect great holes in his memory.

Mark Chaplin is correct.  Many of the great golf courses are set up so that it is impossible to get to know the layout.  Most courses are either too exclusive or too expensive to allow multiple rounds.  This situation is especially prevalent in the United States.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

jim_lewis

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Re: Pinehurst No. 2....The Emperor Has No Clothes
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2010, 04:10:05 PM »
Steve:

Just want to say that your hole descriptions are spot on and well written.

Jim
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Pinehurst No. 2....The Emperor Has No Clothes
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2010, 04:25:14 PM »
Matt

fair enough, but i can say i enjoyed The Old Course a zillion times more the first time i played it versus #2.

My guess is that most of us have read many, many posts, books, stories about TOC as well as seen several Opens held there. Therefore you much more familiar with the course prior to your first play than most of us would be at Pinehurst.

Growing up in North Carolina I had actually I had walked 3 rounds of the Tour Championship in 1992 at #2.

When I first played TOC I may have been able to name 1-2 holes on the course and had only really "walked" one Open there in 1995.

I was much more familiar with #2 than TOC.  But I see your point.

Sean_A

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Re: Pinehurst No. 2....The Emperor Has No Clothes
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2010, 05:15:50 AM »
Although this may be the opposite of the intended effect, I really want to go play Pinehurst Number 2 after reading this thread!  I think the great green sites and the impossibility of losing a golf ball is good enough for me.  I mean, really, want more could one want out of a golf course?  I have not played #2, but if all 18 greens are world-class as a set, doesn't that make it a great golf course with 18 great holes.  World-class greens dictate strategy back to the tee and thus create interesting holes.  Greens are also the most egalitarian features of a golf course.  Every golfer, big and small, young and old, must confront the green and its challenges on every hole. 

Let's say there are two courses.  Course A is brilliant and dramatic from tee to green.  Yet its greens are flat, boring, and uniform as a set.  Course B is wide open off the tee and a relatively easy test of ball-striking.  However, the greens are wild, varied, and possess endless interest.  I will choose to play Course B 95 times out of 100.

If I have learned one thing from being in London, it's that it is very difficult to judge a golf course after one play.  Like it or not, one play at a course will give the golfer a distorted perspective that is either overly positive or overly negative.  I gained a much greater appreciation for courses like Deal and Prestwick over here by simply playing an extra nine holes!  Furthermore, a bad round or bad stretch of holes can make a golfer neglect great holes in his memory.

Mark Chaplin is correct.  Many of the great golf courses are set up so that it is impossible to get to know the layout.  Most courses are either too exclusive or too expensive to allow multiple rounds.  This situation is especially prevalent in the United States.

JNC

You should see Pinehurst.  So far as I know, it is unique.  There can't be many championship courses in which its difficult to lose a ball.  There also can't be many high quality courses which present such a consistent challenge for approaching and chipping.  Yet the greens themselves are not terribly difficult to read or putt and there is no nasty danger awaiting for the errant approach.  The concept from tee to green is genius.  However, looking at the pix, it would be brilliant if some of the greens could look like Ross intended - the variety would be greatly welcomed imo because variety is one of the best elements any course can have yet so many courses don't fully explore all that can be done with greens. 

Chappers is right, the cost of trying to get to know some of these courses is prohibitive even for some of the most keen golfers.  Even so, if a course totally captivated me, I would happily pay the cost for more looks.  Merion is an example of this and probably the biggest single factor of why I am captivated by the course is the variety of holes and greens - its incredible. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Link Walsh

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Re: Pinehurst No. 2....The Emperor Has No Clothes
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2010, 01:23:23 PM »
I played it once back in the summer of 94.  I think it was right after the Senior Open was out there, but the greens were still bent if I'm not mistaken.  So they were pretty receptive.  But I have good memories of the place.  I can recall many times where my recovery shots around the green scared me a little, but I was able to pull some of them off.  So that made the experience even more gratifying.  Would I play it again today?  I would love to be able to go back and really study the strategy involved in playing each hole, but not at those greens fees...

Will Spivey

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Re: Pinehurst No. 2....The Emperor Has No Clothes
« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2010, 09:48:35 PM »
I have to disagree with my friend, Jim.  I love #2.  Perhaps it's just the "spirit" of the place -- walking where I know so many greats have gone before.  Even the new addition of Payne Stewart on 18 gives me goose bumps.  I enjoy that the course challenges the best players in the world, but a high handicapper can go out there and also have a great day.  Since the most recent Open, the fairways aren't what they once where, and I sincerely hope that C&C will restore some sanity to the lines. 

The experience on and around the greens at #2 is fantastic.  So many options, and as an earlier poster stated, only well struck shots from the fairway will hold the greens.  The last time I played I was paired with a father and his 2 sons from Philly.  After about the fourth time one of them putted from the center of the green to off the green I wanted to shout "don't you get it?"  (Alas, decorum prevailed and I said nothing)

I do wish to point out it is possible to lose a ball on #2.  The last time I played I hit my tee ball short coming in to the 9th (par 3).  I proceeded to blade my second shot over the green and OB.  I think my caddy said, "I've never seen that before." 

Yes, it is frightfully expensive.  But in this day and age, what premiere resort experience isn't?  It's a far better value than Torrey Pines.  I do find the entire Pinehurst experience sublime.

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