[Ed Oden]

I noticed something today about my home club (Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte) that I hadn't noticed before.  We have at least 10 holes (2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 14, 15 and 17) where it is difficult to tell the pin position from the fairway (or the tee in the case of a par 3).  The reasons are varied.  Sometimes its an uphill shot.  Sometimes its a raised green or the lip of a bunker.  Sometimes the green sits low but has enough contour to obscure the depth of the the flag.  Now, what I realized for the first time today is that with only one exception each such pin position can be determined from some other spot on the course earlier in the round or as you drive into the club.  The lone exception is the 12th, which is a short par 3 of only 140 yards.  But you have to be paying attention way in advance.  For example, the view of the 10th comes from the 1st green/second tee.  The view of the 15th comes from the 3rd green/4th tee.  And the view of the 8th comes from the drive into the club's parking lot.

What if anything does this say about the architecture?

Ed

[Bill_McBride]

It certainly makes you do some guessing in club selection, as well as rewarding those who check out the pin positions in advance.

Some clubs publish a pin sheet every day; our club uses a 1-2-3 system that rotates pins front - center - back.  I prefer the guesswork, it's just more interesting.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Ed -
Do you carry a yardage book when you play ala Tobacco Road / one with (1,2,3,4) pin positions?

Do you just make mental notes?.. When I loop at Quaker there a a few holes that I note on a scorecard (ex. +4 left) ahead of time because it will be blind later in the round. We are required to carry distance lasers, so I can always walk a middle distance and shoot it... how do you deal with this problem (if you consider it a problem!)?

In general my feelings would be that I would be somewhat upset with this my first time on the course, especially if it was a public course, but a members course you should be able to learn (like you have) to see the pins ahead of time from other spots over time... In the case of the later I like how it really makes you think and can give you a definite advantage in a match with someone who isn't paying attention, but I wouldn't go out of my way to design a course that forces you to look ahead.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ed,
There's a course near me that's very similar in its blindness, only trouble is that it was public, and noted for the dreaded six hour round.

Maybe it means that a course with a lot of blindness shouldn't be public.  

[Ed Oden]

I've played hundreds of rounds at Carolina.  So I don't need a yardage book or even a rangefinder any more.  We have pin sheets.  I just never bother to pick one up.  I'm not morally opposed...just lazy.  Plus, getting a glimpse of the position is better than a pin sheet since I can often see where the hole is in relation to various ridges and slopes.  A pin sheet with +4 or -8 on it doesn't do the same since I don't know exactly how far onto the greens those ridges/slopes are. 

Ed

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ed,
After hundreds of rounds you could probably play it in your sleep.
Unless you have a chance at repeat plays, or the course is placed to attract a lot of repeat business, blindness isn't a type of ploy that should be used too often on a course.

[Ed Oden]

Jim, some would argue I regularly play in my sleep.

[Garland Bayley]

What if anything does this say about the architecture?

Ed

It says it wasn't built by an architect that was dependent on a golf cart to drive you up a hill to each tee.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Unless you have a chance at repeat plays, or the course is placed to attract a lot of repeat business, blindness isn't a type of ploy that should be used too often on a course.

Jim define too often.  I think an approach that hides the bottom of the flagstick is common on many holes on the great old courses I've played.  The yardaage books with pinsheets and bushnells do detract from the subtleties of this kind of hole.  More power to the player who uses his eyes early in the round - where trees havn't blocked such views!

In short, this is the kind of thing I like.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I think an approach that hides the bottom of the flagstick is common on many holes on the great old courses I've played. 

Tony,
I refer you to the photo of yourself and the other gentleman seen on the  "Where My Lefties At" thread. Your credibility is shot on this topic. 

Seriously though, I don't dislike blind or semi blind holes either, and I believe that it won't be blind the second time I play it.   

Defining 'too often' is easy, the course I mentioned suffered from six hour rounds and a good bit of the pain could be attributed to the number of blind approach shots made more difficult by limited depth perception, 'invisible' greenside bunkering, and thick rough.

None of those things would be much of a problem on a private course or a public course with a lot of frequent fliers.

[Bill_McBride]

I think an approach that hides the bottom of the flagstick is common on many holes on the great old courses I've played. 

Tony,
I refer you to the photo of yourself and the other gentleman seen on the  "Where My Lefties At" thread. Your credibility is shot on this topic. 

It's not that Tony is that tall, it's just that Jim Goby is only about 5'2"!   

[BCrosby]

Ed -

Interesting observation. Athens CC also has many holes on which you can't see the botton of the pin. (Nos. 1, 2, 5, 9, 11, 13, 15, 18)
Likewise East Lake (nos. 1, 3, 4, 7, 10, 11, 13, 15 and, depending on pin loaction, 18)

I doublt, however, that Ross courses have a lot more of such partially hidden pins than most. Curious to hear what others think.

Bob

[Carl Johnson]

I noticed something today about my home club (Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte) that I hadn't noticed before.  We have at least 10 holes (2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 14, 15 and 17) where it is difficult to tell the pin position from the fairway (or the tee in the case of a par 3).  The reasons are varied.  Sometimes its an uphill shot.  Sometimes its a raised green or the lip of a bunker.  Sometimes the green sits low but has enough contour to obscure the depth of the the flag.  Now, what I realized for the first time today is that with only one exception each such pin position can be determined from some other spot on the course earlier in the round or as you drive into the club.  The lone exception is the 12th, which is a short par 3 of only 140 yards.  But you have to be paying attention way in advance.  For example, the view of the 10th comes from the 1st green/second tee.  The view of the 15th comes from the 3rd green/4th tee.  And the view of the 8th comes from the drive into the club's parking lot.

What if anything does this say about the architecture?

Ed

Ed, where do you get a look at #'s 4 and 5?  Must be from pretty far away?  I also like to check out the 13 green after finishing 10.  Depending on how I play 13 (or how it plays me), I cannot always get a good look at the green surface from my approach or before.  Regarding the architecture, excellent question.  Carolina is extremely compact, which helps a lot, but that's what the architect(s) started with.  They designed the greens with the difficult-to-see surfaces, so that sets up the problem.  The last piece of the puzzle is the routing and sequencing, although tree (and bush) "management" is a factor, too.  Carolina doesn't play it's original sequencing.  My understanding (based on an older member's fuzzy memory) is that the current sequencing is at least the third.  To the extent it says anything to me about the architecture, assuming the result is architect-intended, is that it's good architecture in that it brings the mental aspect of the game into play a little more.  It should not be too difficult to remember to look for the pins in advance, but sometimes in the heat of the game you can forget to do it.  At least I can.  I hope Kris Spence will see this and add his insights.

[Ed Oden]

Carl, I will admit that #4 isn't the best.  But you can get a rough idea from the range or the 1st tee.  #5 isn't hard at all.  You can see it pretty clearly through the trees from either the 3rd or 4th tees.  Here is the view from the 3rd tee...



Hmmm, that pin is definitely not front since its well behind the left bunker.  But it also doesn't look like its all the way back since I can see quite a bit of green to the left.  I'm guessing that pin is on the back tier but not too far past the ridge.  I wonder if am right?  What a coincidence!  I just happen to have a picture on that same day from almost the exact opposite vantage point...



Ed

[Carl Johnson]

Ed, thanks.  I'm playing tomorrow morning and I will try to remember to take a look and see what these views do for me.  One issue is eyesight.  At my age long distance vision is more of an issue, inspite of the best efforts of my eye doctor.  Carl

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