[V. Kmetz]

For Tim M,

re: Oxford Greens, CT - Reading your post made me want to temper my comments about the course somewhat.

You are right, many of the green complexes possessed a great deal of interest and also contained a great deal of variety as I remember. It's just - as you acknowledge - that getting there was no fun whatsoever and in some cases missing the green surface by more than 5 yards was a horror.  But the greens were fun.

for Mac P.

Hello there sir...I wanted to get a little more from you about Sawgrass, if you have occasion.  i know many on this board have played it, but I evaluate your perspective with slightly more weight.  Besides the pace of play on one hand and the sex appeal of 17 on the other, was it actually fun to have a match or card a score.  It doesn't seem like it from TV and circumferential reading.  It "feels" like the ball can clunk around in trees, angles of play are shot without perfect placement and unnatural mounding and waviness lends artificial tricks to shots that are just aren't there.  Am I that wrong or what are the redeeming features of the course?

cheers

vk

[Matthew Parish]

After two visits plays my biggest disappointment is Muirfield.  Sure, its a good course, but they are charging about double what N Berwick charges and that puts me on the 1st tee of N Berwick 10 out of 10. 

A group of mates and I are paying £75 to play Muirfield in March.  I'd have thought you, the king of the winter deal, would have looked out for deals like that, not least as Muirfield can play as well in March as it does in the summer.

Played Reflection Bay in 2003 and the green fee then was $150.  $50 would have been about right.

Canary

I could be convinced to tag along with an outing to Muirfield in the off-season if the situation was right, but I wouldn't organize it.  I tend to go cheap places for over-nighters in the winter.  Though this fall we are going to St Andrews - very much a splash out for this group who look to do two weekend games on a quality course and B&B for no more than £125 (usually closer to £100) with few exceptions.  Its a concept I have a lot of time for.  Unfortunately, I have to miss the spring meeting in Tenby.  I was looking forward to that one-nighter, but such is life.   

Ciao

Sean,

If you are looking for cheap as chips winter deal - Gog Magog is a decent bet played the Wandlebury a decent Hawtree course built over 10 years ago for £20.50! and the Old course is a similar price. Wandlebury greens are much better in the winter as its USGA standard and is used for Open Regional qualifying! Boony and I were considering playing Royston last year - £15 a round in winter!!!

Canary - Muirfield for £75 thats an absolute bargain!!! one of the deals of the year.

Biggest Disappointment per Dollar - thinking about it - PGA Centenary at Gleneagles - the Kings is a better course at a cheaper fee!

Cheers
Ben 

Ben,

I will echo Glenealges-PGA, it's next on the list.  So, to get to a top 5, I would go

1. Doral Blue
2. Torrey South
3. Gleneagles - PGA
4. Reflection Bay
5. Valderrama

Now, I appreciated each of these courses in some way, i.e., aesthetics, a good hole here and there, good conditioning, (except maybe Doral), but in terms of feeling satisfied with money well spent, not so much. 

I played Reflection Bay a couple of years ago for $50 and was the only person on the course. I thought that was great value.

[Doug Siebert]

Is anyone willing to mention a private club in this thread?

WW

Often the guest fees are quite reasonable, so even if I find a course disappointing compared to what I was expecting its unlikely to compare poorly to public courses that may cost up to $500 these days.

[Jason Topp]

for Mac P.

Hello there sir...I wanted to get a little more from you about Sawgrass, if you have occasion.  i know many on this board have played it, but I evaluate your perspective with slightly more weight.  Besides the pace of play on one hand and the sex appeal of 17 on the other, was it actually fun to have a match or card a score.  It doesn't seem like it from TV and circumferential reading.  It "feels" like the ball can clunk around in trees, angles of play are shot without perfect placement and unnatural mounding and waviness lends artificial tricks to shots that are just aren't there.  Am I that wrong or what are the redeeming features of the course?

cheers

vk

vk:

My two cents:

I think it is a very fun course on which to match a card and actually has a lot of variety in hole difficulty rather than being a course that just beats you up (like the one the tour is playing this week).

The par fives are pretty short and present some interesting 2nd shot choices for all levels of play.  Holes 9, 11, and 16 are outstanding and the 2nd may be ok but seemed a bit narrow for my taste on one play.  The par threes are very good.  Think of Macdonald's templates and you are not too far off, the 3rd is about 165 with an interesting green, the 8th is a long par 3 that plays somewhat like a Biarritz, the 13th has some feeding and repelling slopes somewhat reminiscent of a redan and the 17th is akin to a short.  The par fours feature a wide range of lengths from handshake openers (1st and 10th), short and tight (4th, 6th, 12th), long with angles you want to cut for distance and ideal approach angles (5, 7, 14, 15) and a memorable finisher (18).

Water does not come tightly into play except for the 4th, 16th, 17th and 18th (although there are reasonable forced carries on 9 and 11).

[Tim Martin]

I agree with any of the resort courses @ kiawah... Ocean was expensive but worth most of it

The Castle Course in St. Andrews - £120 or about $190

Hudson Hills - NYC area muni/public - $115 no walking allowed. Played a bit then after working for MCGD where they even bashed it, went back once more, realized how right they were! Do the right thing and go to split rock for twice the golf at 1/2 the price

Pinehurst 4 - $205... are you kidding me? this course was the most overrated course I saw all 2010, barely beating out Westchester Country Club.

Jaeger-What don`t you like about Westchester CC? I have always been a fan of both Travis layouts-the West and the South. This is a pretty cool place with a lot of amenities not found at other clubs.

[cary lichtenstein]

I paid $500 a few times to play courses, never worth it

[Sean_A]

After two visits plays my biggest disappointment is Muirfield.  Sure, its a good course, but they are charging about double what N Berwick charges and that puts me on the 1st tee of N Berwick 10 out of 10. 

A group of mates and I are paying £75 to play Muirfield in March.  I'd have thought you, the king of the winter deal, would have looked out for deals like that, not least as Muirfield can play as well in March as it does in the summer.

Canary

I could be convinced to tag along with an outing to Muirfield in the off-season if the situation was right, but I wouldn't organize it.  I tend to go cheap places for over-nighters in the winter.  Though this fall we are going to St Andrews - very much a splash out for this group who look to do two weekend games on a quality course and B&B for no more than £125 (usually closer to £100) with few exceptions.  Its a concept I have a lot of time for.  Unfortunately, I have to miss the spring meeting in Tenby.  I was looking forward to that one-nighter, but such is life.   

Ciao

Sean,

If you are looking for cheap as chips winter deal - Gog Magog is a decent bet played the Wandlebury a decent Hawtree course built over 10 years ago for £20.50! and the Old course is a similar price. Wandlebury greens are much better in the winter as its USGA standard and is used for Open Regional qualifying! Boony and I were considering playing Royston last year - £15 a round in winter!!!

Canary - Muirfield for £75 thats an absolute bargain!!! one of the deals of the year.

Biggest Disappointment per Dollar - thinking about it - PGA Centenary at Gleneagles - the Kings is a better course at a cheaper fee!

Cheers
Ben 

Ben

There is a fine line between cheap as chips and good value.  We must remember that a group of guys have to be convinced that a course is worth the effort to get there and there has to be some sort of assurance that it will be in decent condition during the off months. 

Ciao 

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

I don't recall the specific time but we called it quits on number 12 after waiting on most every shot from the third hole on. The on-course staff wasn't taking charge of the situation. Sure they rode by in a cart and told us that the pace of play was slow that day and  that it extended all the  way through 18. Stating the obvious to me and asking for patience but not willing to do anything more is not dealing with the issue. On the ride back to the clubhouse, we actually saw one poor guy laid out on his golf cart who appeared to be either taking a nap or in a coma.

When I went to the Clubhouse the real story was explained to me. They were hosting several buddy trips that weekend and they had been coming to Mid Pines for several years. It was further explained to me  that the buddy trips like to drink a lot, smoke cigars, and gamble, so play gets slow. I could tell they took pride in hosting buddy trips as they post pictures in the Clubhouse of the groups that had been coming for decades. I and others like me needed to accept the conditions and realize that I didn't generate the revenue that day nor over time that the buddy trips did for the resort. I don't fault the guys on the buddy trip for doing what they enjoy. I fault the Clubhouse staff anf golf course operations for allowing their course to be hi-jacked by these groups to the detriment of others looking to enjoy the day. They got the revenue that day but loss a customer for good.

Big disappointment per dollar that day consindering I also paid lodging the night before.

Fault the management not the on course staff - as your story clearly depicts this as a mangement decision.

I will tell you it is a double edged sword...

We hosted a similar group of 40+ venture cap guys who liked to play similar to the groups in your story as well as bring along some "friends". Things got a little too difficult to deal with and as they went to book the following year they were presented with a list of things that would have to change before we would prepare a contract or take their money (and it was CONSIDERABLE money as they spent thousands each in the golf shop and a ton in F&B). They were always polite and stated that if we cannot do XYZ we are going elsewhere. My answer was simple... Sorry to hear that and I hope you enjoy whatever facility you choose.

Believe me it was/is not easy to take this stance with a group all flying in on their private jets and spending in excess of 100K at the golf club over a few days but sometimes you have to do the right thing at the expense of the bottom line. For those asking if it really had a negative effect on the bottom line all things considered the answer is yes. So... wise decision or operational suicide?

[J Cabarcos]

I agree with a prior GCA'er, Doral's Blue Monster is totally overpriced for the actual experience.  You were definitely better off enjoying your time watching the talent in the Delano, or any other nice joint in South Beach than having a second round at the Blue Monster.

Speaking from experience, being a Sofla "So-flat" golfer (insert laments here) there are actually some worthwhile tracks down here.  My favorite is the recently restored Donald Ross Circa 1925 Biltmore Course located in the hamlet of Coral Gables. History and old school architectural integrity.   The former Champions Tour's stop at Crandon Park GC in Key Biscayne is still tops with very challenging routing that cuts through island mangroves with vistas towards Biscayne Bay and Downtown Miami.  Lastly, rounding up a quick top three is Emerald Hills in Hollywood, FL.  This place is epitome of fast, undulating, and memorable greens. It was the track to qualify for the former PGA Doral Tour stop prior to it being a World Golf Championship.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Wynn

[Mike_Young]

per dollar...got to say Pebble Beach

[Patrick_Mucci]

If all of the golf courses mentioned are so disappointing, so value challenged, how do they continue to command and get such a high price ?

[Mike Bowline]

If all of the golf courses mentioned are so disappointing, so value challenged, how do they continue to command and get such a high price ?

I believe the answer to this is simple: the person with this kind of money in general does not appreciate great, good, bad, or terrible architecture. It is more important that they be treated like a king, have excellent conditions, and be able to state with pride: "I played _________ course".

The members of this website are discerning and know great, good, bad, or terrible architecture when they see it. We demand great architecture for top dollar, and when we do not get it, we are disappointed. More so than the average Joe.

But you bring up an interesting point: with the economy still in the dumps, how do these top-dollar courses contiue to fill the tee sheet?

[Mark Pearce]

per dollar...got to say Pebble Beach

Mike,

Interesting.  I'm in California in May and considering playing PB.  I would never normally consider dropping over £300 to play a golf course.  That's more than twice the cost of TOC, which is usually my limit.  However, lots of people say it's a once in a lifetime experience and worth the money.  You don't agree.  Can you explain why?  (By the way, I am leaning towards not playing PB but finding other places to spend the money).

[Patrick_Mucci]

If all of the golf courses mentioned are so disappointing, so value challenged, how do they continue to command and get such a high price ?

I believe the answer to this is simple: the person with this kind of money in general does not appreciate great, good, bad, or terrible architecture. It is more important that they be treated like a king, have excellent conditions, and be able to state with pride: "I played _________ course".

So you're saying that people who have money, don't have discerning values, that they have no sense, no appreciation and no ability to distinquish good to great golf courses from bad to mediocre golf courses ?  ?  ?[/b]

The members of this website are discerning and know great, good, bad, or terrible architecture when they see it. We demand great architecture for top dollar, and when we do not get it, we are disappointed. More so than the average Joe.

"The average Joe" ?  I thought you indicated that it was people with money who didn't have the ability to discern and demand, NOT the "average Joe"[/b]

But you bring up an interesting point: with the economy still in the dumps, how do these top-dollar courses contiue to fill the tee sheet?

Yes, that is the question.
If the product is so bad, producing little return on the cost, how can they charge those prices and remain open ?

[Sean Leary]

per dollar...got to say Pebble Beach

Mike,

Interesting.  I'm in California in May and considering playing PB.  I would never normally consider dropping over £300 to play a golf course.  That's more than twice the cost of TOC, which is usually my limit.  However, lots of people say it's a once in a lifetime experience and worth the money.  You don't agree.  Can you explain why?  (By the way, I am leaning towards not playing PB but finding other places to spend the money).

I think most people would say that PB is worth the money; I certainly do. However if you are going to be standing on the first tee primarily thinking about how much you just spent, then it probably isn't....

[Ted Cahill]

No doubt, Halfmoon Bay Ocean course! Paid $75 twilight rate several years ago and that was too much! I can't even imagine someone paying over $150 to play either course at Halfmoon Bay resort.

+1.  They ruined a good pumpkin patch when they built this course.  This course is the epitome of deceptive golf marketing: pretty pictures, dissapointing experience. 

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