Riviera"s 8th hole "modified" once again

[Ian Larson]

I gotta rush out of the house for a dinner but I wanted to post this quickly for you guys this evening. The past couple weeks Ive been playing around with Riviera 8 by using Thomas' original design and overlaying it over the current 8. This is pretty sloppy at the moment as I havent spent any time really cleaning it up but you get the point...

Personally.....I dont think ALL of the tree's needed to stay. But when you overlay Thomas' drawing over the current hole he has 2 noses on the barranca that 2 trees could be kept. I loved what the trees do to you mentally off of the tee with trying to hit a fade onto the left fairway. I thought they played a key role. In my drawing here I took the left fairway bunker out and utilized 2 capes on the barranca edge as bunkers with the 2 trees forcing a fade or slice even off of the tee. I also dont disagree with the right side fairway bunker and kept that in.

Is the yardage of the new mid bunkers enough to challenge the pro's? And is it easier without the tree's to really force a fade?

Im not such an extremist to think Riviera should restore everything to a T but its really frustrating to continually keep seeing things like this at a course I love.

I dont buy into the fact that maybe it needs to mature. I think the best architects out there are able to redo this hole and at least make an effort to make it already look matured and blend in naturally. I would think that is what Gil and Geoff will do at LACC if the barranca's there are still being redone. This is just really pathetic...

[Tony Ristola]

From the desk of Our Emporer a while back......

The shaping looks like a mix of the Nicklaus course at PGA West and Ted Robinson on a light dose of acid.

ROTFLOL

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Ian, today's tee is actually about 30 yards right of where you have it.  And that is the problem.  With this current green, I no advantage in taking the left side.

[Sean McCue]

What a f@%$ing disaster!!!  Fazio and Co should be ashamed of themselves.

[Alex Miller]

The problem IMO stems more from the changes they made when they resurrected the right fairway. It's dead flat and you can hit it out there 260 no problem. If they gave it more shaping (not like the recent stuff however), but some rolls in the fairway and perhaps a narrower landing area then the hole would have cause people to think alot more on the tee shot.

But Fazio did nothing to help judging by these pics.

[Ian Larson]

Ian, today's tee is actually about 30 yards right of where you have it.  And that is the problem.  With this current green, I no advantage in taking the left side.

Lynn, I didn't use the single Thomas tee in his drawing. I used the current tee's in their placement up against the canyon wall. Or I could be oblivious that they moved tee's as well? I see what you're saying about the left not being a smart option from the current tee's with the right fairway being right there in front of you, especially in competetion. But man I always loved hitting a fade to the left side lacing the bunker and euc's! 

Not that it would ever happen but would the hole be better if a single large tee was put that was more centered between the 2 options? I suppose it would if it made the left more enticing as Thomas intended.

[PCCraig]

Never played there, but from the pictures I thought the trees in the middle of the fairway were just plain goofy. I actually think the stream or sewer leak is actually an improvement. But I do agree that the left fairway still needs considerable work in order to make it a viable option.

[RJ_Daley]

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/USA/California/Riviera/index.html

I can't insert the specific photos of 8, you will have to scroll through the album to get to the several photos of 8.   But, this gives you a good idea of the before, after it was the after of the before... 

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Ian, today's tee is actually about 30 yards right of where you have it.  And that is the problem.  With this current green, I no advantage in taking the left side.

Lynn, I didn't use the single Thomas tee in his drawing. I used the current tee's in their placement up against the canyon wall. Or I could be oblivious that they moved tee's as well? I see what you're saying about the left not being a smart option from the current tee's with the right fairway being right there in front of you, especially in competetion. But man I always loved hitting a fade to the left side lacing the bunker and euc's! 


Ian, the current back tees were all built by the Fazio design firm when they had to lengthen the hole due to the distance the ball flies.  In order to lengthen the hole they couldn't go straight back, they would run into the 7th green.  So they went over to the right and against the wall of the canyon.  Those tees never existed.  The original tees were either in the middle or slightly to the left of middle.  The right fairway was still there.  They took it and leveled it in a weird way including adding a bunker on the right that was never there.  If they had positioned the tees properly and built the right fairway correctly, it might have worked, but then they wouldn't have obtained the length they desired.

Not that it would ever happen but would the hole be better if a single large tee was put that was more centered between the 2 options? I suppose it would if it made the left more enticing as Thomas intended.

[ChipRoyce]

George Thomas' sketch of his 8th from the Riviera history book with the shot option lines overlayed....

ps....if this is the way to restore/renovate/restovate/engineer/butcher a sandy wash, it will be interesting to see how Gil and Geoff do it down the street at LACC if that is still part of the restoration there. Someone just made a good point with did they do this to the other holes? Does a sandy wash just pop up on one hole when it was flowing through the entire property?

Now that is one ball buster of a hazard. The new version just doesn't look good. Wondering if there's a happy medium somewhere between the orig. drawing and the current implementation?

[Bill_McBride]

George Thomas' sketch of his 8th from the Riviera history book with the shot option lines overlayed....

ps....if this is the way to restore/renovate/restovate/engineer/butcher a sandy wash, it will be interesting to see how Gil and Geoff do it down the street at LACC if that is still part of the restoration there. Someone just made a good point with did they do this to the other holes? Does a sandy wash just pop up on one hole when it was flowing through the entire property?

Now that is one ball buster of a hazard. The new version just doesn't look good. Wondering if there's a happy medium somewhere between the orig. drawing and the current implementation?

Chip, keep in mind the hazard was a dry wash, you could play out of it.  

Except for a week or so after a big rain, I guess.  

[Kyle Henderson]

The following opinion of Riviera’s latest incarnation of the 8th hole was offered to me in private by a member of the club. He is a scratch player who is well-versed in the club’s history and GCA.

“A lot of what is there is an experiment. There is a real chance that water will flow again in the barranca. I think the loss of the trees adds a lot of options off the tee. The right side has more risk now, needs more still, but some will now try to bomb it deep into the  left fairway and get in trouble so there are more risk/reward scenarios in place. Shot values are better, aesthetics are horrible. If they just dig it out and replace it with native chaparral it would be better. The bunker scenario is only on this hole and is an experiment.”

[Ian Larson]

I guess my question would be how is the right side riskier now?  And with the loss of all trees, thus the loss of a precise draw off the tee, is the bunkering really challenging the tee shot? I think with no trees that the added option is just bombing it over the bunker where the trees once were. Is there more of a penalty for the errant shot to the left?

As far as the possibility of water flowing through it again that was always a possibility and a usual occurance when significant rainfall occurred with the barranca collecting all of the surface runoff. The big difference now is that Riv could never get washed away again after the army corps put in a culvert under the barranca that is so big a truck could drive through it all the way to Roy Rogers State Beach. I don't see how the aquaduct looking thing changes how the barranca evacuates surface runoff. Maybe it's constructed like a French drain?

With cutting down 80-90 year old eucalyptus trees that were planted at construction seems like alot more than an experiment, that's seems planned and convinced....what if the experiment fails? Much has been lost for good. Thanks Kyle for the scoop.

 

[Tom_Doak]

I think this hole is a perfect example of how restoration is not always practical.  Everyone is trying too hard to reproduce a cool old drawing, but the shot values have changed so much in the 80 years in between that the balance of power between the alternate routes is no longer the same.  It's especially complicated when trees were part of the equation.

The hole today is actually one of the worst alternate-route par-4's I can think of.  The right-hand fairway is entirely without life, and the bunker at the end is beyond pointless.  The left-hand fairway has some great movement, but hardly anyone would go that way because there is too much going on along the right side, and because even a great drive leaves you with an awkward angle to the horribly revised green.  The "balance of area" which Thomas was so proud of is completely gone.

[Morgan Clawson]

The restoration work looks really low budget.  I think I saw a similar feature at a $25 muni last summer.

[Mike Hendren]

Are "design" and "sketch" the same thing?  As I stated earlier I suspect Geo. C. Thomas, Jr. was the best at romanticizing his work.  Then again, early photographs of his work are indeed compelling and I look forward to seeing them first-hand one of these days.  Those elements of his designs which are sexiest, however, often appear unsustainable.  

Put 'em back the way they wuz is a noble mantra, if we can only agree on the way they wuz (apologies to Lil Abner).

Bogey

[Adam Clayman]

My impression from Ben Crenshaw was that Thomas was very careful in the construction of his features. That care is evident in Bill and Ben's work. It may not wow those who want to be wowed, but, it avoids the eye sores that are created when features stand out against their natural grade or respective environs. 

[Michael Robin]

Ian -

The right side is riskier now because the right fairway is much narrower with the widening of the "barranca." I would say the width has been reduced by 25%. A teammate from college who is playing this week tells me he hates the right side and always goes left, and especially now with the removal of the trees. A lot of the good players at Riv say they go left in Medal play and right in Match.